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superdude777
27 January 2012
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Change for the sake of change.
The drop down menus in various OS do not bother me, its like painting a white horse with black stripes and calling it a Zebra. It looks different but its still a horse.
Comment made about the PC & Tech Authority article:
Discuss: So what's wrong with drop-down menus, anyway??
The traditional user interface is being attacked on all sides by a suite of new, evolutionary UIs, such as Ubuntu's HUD display. But is this a good thing?
What do you think? Join the discussion. |
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markmcla64
29 January 2012
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Will the nearest fictional supernatural entity please save us from the "The Next Big Thing"? |
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frances
29 January 2012
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This is a classic symptom of a new, less competent generation embarrassed that their predecessors did a better job than they could ever do, so to preserve their self-esteem they have to write them out of history. Microsoft's ribbon is a good (bad) example. The grouping of tools is childish and smacks of designers who didn't know enough English to group them sensibly. Thank goodness they don't design cars, or the controls would be placed aesthetically instead of practically, with the brake only available when the car is stationary. |
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gnome
29 January 2012
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@superdude, you're right, though perhaps it's also change for the sake of a marketing angle.
After all, the 'new exciting colour scheme' of a zebra can be flogged as being much better than the horses that everybody used up to then.
:(
Just like Vista was much better than XP. Riiight . . .
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Paul Maconochie
29 January 2012
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I would not normally comment, and maybe this won't count but I can't help myself this time. Why fix something that is not broke? We don't use these mainstream programs for the sheer joy of it, we use them to achieve things and every time something gets changed we have to relearn it. Windows XP worked fine for me, my mother taught me to put my sox and jocks away so I can file stuff where I want it I don't need Windows libraries as another layer to get in my way of doing stuff. And if I am a slob I can index all my files. And don't even start me on Office ribbon interface. I could live with the interface if only I could get rid of the endless, fonts, schemes, colours that want to impose themselves on me. It has become Office for airheads and the new interfaces actually reduce my efficiency. I knew what I wanted and how to get it and I'm an old fart so it couldn't have been that hard.
That's my 2 cents worth. |
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rubaiyat
29 January 2012
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OSX Lion is a classic example of a muddled jump to try and capitalise on all the users now addicted to smart phones or tablets. It successfully manages to confuse the attributes of both mobile devices and desktop computers so it is not consistent with either and totally stands previous usage on its head to be inconsistent with everything else as well..
The argument is that change is good! Ignoring only good change is good.
Suppose your hairdresser decided that as most people are now reinforcing their obesity with constant exposure to deep frying, that it would be a "change" to rinse your hair in boiling copra. Anybody complaining about having their head dipped in America's favorite condiment are just people who aren't with it.
Probably the same deadheads who have a thing about spelling and grammar. |
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lauluisa
29 January 2012
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Firstly, I cannot agree more with previous commenters.
There really should be some kind of baseline in software design, stating, that a new thing should be no less functional and usable than the existing one. E.g. in medicine a new drug has to be no worse than the one currently in the market. I computer is a tool, not a goal. I would not admire my hammer instead of hammering in some nails. Similarly, I do not want to spend time discovering where some design idiot has hidden things that I use on a regular basis, I want to get my things done and then get out. Oh, and, on this whole ergonomy issue: which is simpler, to casually move my mouse a bit to access some menu or to start typing the command??? Or to spend a month training this frakking command engine to understand me??? I'm already hating the menu in win7 and will continue to hate the HUD in Ubuntu. |
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lauluisa
29 January 2012
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Lastly, I can relate to the fact that HUD is the stuff "Sci-Fi is made of", but may I remind that in Sci-Fi people tend to suffer frequently and die horribly :) |
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amcmo
29 January 2012
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I'm waiting to see how it pans out.
If it makes the OS more useable,I have no issue with a compete change if mindset.
Despite being an old bastard, I actually enjoy the challenge of the new. |
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libertyts
29 January 2012
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Hmmm, seems that people are somewhat passionate about this?!? Personally I use drop down menus occasionally, when I find the need to. Though to be honest, I use the run command and well organised folder groups of shortcuts more often than the drop down menu's.
I am of this "younger, useless" generation that people keep talking about, being 24, but I have been successfully running my own IT Consulting company now for 6 years and find myself frustrated by my generation's lack of competence in the English language.
However, it is not my generation who is teaching, it is the previous "wiser, competent" generation who is charged with this responsibility. This in-fact is the same generation that is creating these new "dumbed down" versions of operating systems. My generation is only now breaking into this market.
Please, people, think about what you are saying before you comment. I see no problem with venting, but don't spout your misguided opinions without just a little bit of fact, or even common-sense.
I feel that the approach OS designers are taking at this current time, although not perfect, is a step in the right direction. Controlled simplification can only mean higher efficiency in the long run. Over simplification however will, of course, end in a greatly reduced capacity for creativity and innovation. Will this happen? I really don't know and none of us will until we start to utilise some of the new interfaces coming to us. Who knows, maybe they will get it right! |
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rubaiyat
29 January 2012
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Please define "the approach OS designers are taking at this current time".
There are some major upheavals in OSX Lion, for example, at this time.
Scrolling is now a la iOS mode The motion of the cursor is as if the finger is moving the screen not the scrollbar. In theory this would be a good thing except in practice it is quite inconsistent. Inside the window it does this, but move to the edge of the window or any other part of the UI and it reverts to old behavior.
Scroll bars are now hidden As the extension to the above, scrollbars are not considered necessary anymore. The trouble is hidden objects are exactly that, invisible. If you can't see them how do you know where to find them? They used also to offer valuable clues as to how much of the window represented how much of the document and exactly where in the document you were viewing. Also the scrollbar only appears if your mouse's inertia device, either finger stroke or scroll button/wheel is doing its bit. As is often the case it isn't ,so no scrollbars appear and you can't click to where they should be to make them appear.
OSX Lion Auto-saves Again a good thing for those who chronically are unable to save. UI fumblers are however still lost because they never save in the first place to kick off the Auto Save. Auto Save now also works a la Time Machine with versions, that also confuse users of all shapes and sizes as to what is the actual file and how do you send only the final version to clients. If only you could turn this off if you didn't want it.
Extra steps to make altered copies of a file Enormous numbers of users are now totally confused because there is no Save As... any more on the File Menu. You have to go an extra step to Duplicate, then Save to get the same effect.
The UI is simplified by hiding files and objects This has become a plague of things behind curtains and hidden under pot plants that you don't even know to look for. Templates for iWork were never easy to locate to do elementary deletion, replacement or renaming. Now Apple has them buried two stories down in the Reichstag bunker behind a secret door, that you need a secret map and password to reveal.
I can go on at much greater length, but if it is not something you are using then it gets hard to follow. To sum up, experienced users can't find what they always had at their finger tips, and new users don't know to even look. Worse we all have to use multiple versions of different OSes which now all behave in bizarrely different ways, so we get no productivity gains from muscle memory. In fact the old productive habits we learnt are now a positive hinderance as we fight whatever UI we happen to be caught in.
I love chucking out the old, tired and stupid so we can get on with new superior tools, but this is none of that.
Instead with a few exceptions it is demented Feng Shui for schmucks.
Just dealing with yet another gotcha. I mistakenly started a second update installation in Lion. Installer is an app and so won't start a 2nd installation till the 1st is finished. Unfortunately the 1st won't finish because it wants to quit the 2nd which won't until the 1st is finished.
Edited by rubaiyat: 29/1/2012 11:30:29 PM |
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j876
29 January 2012
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Why change something that works fine?
I am sick of this dumbing down operation that Microsoft, Apple and the Linux community are feeding us.
In windows 7 I had to go into 'Folder Options' to turn the menus back on to get to advanced settings I couldn't get to with with the buttons on top of windows.
I had to manually turn on the menus in Firefox to find all my settings.
The run command I had to turn on manually in the start menu options in Windows 7.
Is it just me or are software developers think people are stupid!
I am from the MS-DOS generation where I used text commands and had almost complete control of my computer and how it runs and slowly, slowly the OS developers of the world are dumbing down the interfaces so much that you will not be able to see where (or how) your data is being stored or what your computer is doing. I hate how iOS manages its data for example where you cannot see a file system underneath (it's there but it has been locked down) why? It should be up to the user where their user files should be stored, not a developer!
Microsoft are doing the same, you cannot open system files and folder to edit them without resulting to advanced methods even if you have administrator rights! Why?
I agree with others here that education is degrading and literacy and numeracy are getting worse and the developers are catering for the lazy. News flash, not everyone is that way inclined and there are people who are computer literate. Not just say they are because they can use Word, or fiddle with an iPad to play a movie.
This dumbing down is a security risk because if users treat these things as black boxes they will not know how to protect themselves. Criminals love users of technology who have no idea how it works!
To the developers at Microsoft, Apple and Linux distros. Stop painting everyone with the same brush and locking out features for advanced users otherwise we will have the Vista/XP debacle all over again! |
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lrd390
30 January 2012
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Well "everyone' except the OS developers agree that menus are the best way to go. Obviously the developers know better. I used to work out how to do things by scrolling along the menus until I found the action I needed. Now I have to recognise an obscure icon that may or may not do as I want. Great improvement NOT. |
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Cookie
30 January 2012
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I can see where this has come from. Making a new UI that is more natural and can be used with touch and something like Kinect. It is really helpful, especially for me since I do some development with Kinect. In conjunction with a touch device and something that does not have a traditional mouse and keyboard it is really nice (I doubt the Ubuntu one will be easy to use). In fact it is so nice for touch that it destroys the use of a mouse and keyboard.
What needs doing is that they have an auto detect so that if the device is touch, a touch screen or NUI (Natural User Interface) device is plugged in it switches to this new HUD UI. There should also be an overriding feature in the equivalent of Ease of Access for Windows that lets you set the UI to normal (drop down menus) or really hard to use impossible to like (HUD designed UI). If this gets done then it would be excellent, if not I'm sure someone somewhere will make a mod to do it (I hope)
Thanks
Cookie |
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willtell
30 January 2012
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rubaiyat,
Although I'm not that familiar enough with OSX to notice all the issues you mentioned, the hidden scroll bars IS a real annoyance for someone who is just used to using a computer that way. I ran you post past a college that's been using Apple systems for more than 20 years... she just burst into laughter with your description of hiding files!
Microsoft are about to do the same (except multiplied by a million) to Windows. Throw out the old ways just to suit a section of the market that they are desperately trying to catch before it completely runs away. It just boggles the mind. At least Apple have a track record of trying to make sense for the user.
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skarpethinn
31 January 2012
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All these changes and "improvements" to the OS UI (especially crap like the aforementioned Office ribbon) would make complete sense if we just found out that the computing industry giants were bought out and taken over by Fisher Price.
They're not too far now from selling computers at Walmart and Toys R Us.....
"Idiocracy" is slowly becooming a prophetic documentay instead of fictional commentary.
Edited by skarpethinn: 31/1/2012 11:33:04 AM
Edited by skarpethinn: 31/1/2012 12:53:25 PM
Edited by skarpethinn: 31/1/2012 12:56:13 PM |
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photohounds
31 January 2012
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Agree ... complexity is often to have bragging rights about 'more' instead of 'useful'.
As long as one can revert to something practical that works.
Linux has sported new-fangled interfaces the last 3 releases. I just turn off what I dislike and that's most of the 'new', 'innovative' stuff..
Mostly, I'm happy enough with drop menus when there's sufficient screen real estate. At a glance selection instead of hit and miss.
Perhaps they should leave some features OUT to avoid clutter in interfaces designed for smaller screens? |
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Doc Harry
31 January 2012
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12 months ago I updated our computers to Windows 7 and Office 2010. Having done so I find it is the biggest mistake I have ever made. As an example "Remove Programs" is now "Programs and features" Why not stick to the original name which was more self-explanatory.
Next came the dreaded "Ribbons" in MS Office. Not only do they take up more screen real estate but you now have to learn the equivalent of Egyptian Hieroglyphics to use them. While the original drop down menus needed tidying up a little they were at least intuitive not to mention easier and faster to use, which is more than can be said for Ribbons.
Not only that but some of the functionality has been removed, such as being able to scan directly into Word or PowerPoint.
So if it aint broke why the hell do you fix it?
Frankly if it were practical I would wind the whole lot back to XP and Office XP.
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amcmo
31 January 2012
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Must be something wrong with me.
I find Win 7 just fine, and have no issue with the Office Ribbon. Actually find it makes work quicker on common tasks.
I also have no problem with the CONCEPT of a HUD system, provided it improves performance.
I do sometimes long for the old days of AMI pro - that was a very fast, clean interface word procvessor, in the days when Office was dog slow. |
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petergaskin
31 January 2012
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Ami Pro was part of a woeful attempt by Lotus to fight Office. A very early version. Gained access to the suite when it was shipped to us as part of purchase of software from the US. Didnt like Ami Pro at all.
i still hate the Ribbon Interface. Drop down menus to go as well! Whats next - back to DOS pcs |
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rubaiyat
31 January 2012
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Can you run DOS on a modern PC?
How on earth would you slow down scrolling a list to even a slow blur? |
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amcmo
31 January 2012
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Each to their own,
As I say, I found it faster and cleaner than Word at the time, but then I enjoyed Visicalc as well.
BTW, it was actually developed by Samna and was the first Windows WP program. It also came with Adobe Type Mgr, at a time before truetype. After 2 yrs it ws purchased by Lotus.
Edited by amcmo: 31/1/2012 10:11:38 PM |
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skarpethinn
1 February 2012
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i find it hilarious that we spend all this time developing electronic and digital word/image processing, pour literally millions into creating programs like Word and Photoshop, and some of the "newer" and more "advanced" incarnations of the technology are stylus and slate - so we've spent so much time and money to basically come back to (admittedly more modern) versions of what ancient Egyptian scribes were using 3000, 4000, & 5000 years ago! |
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amcmo
1 February 2012
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I don't know about others, however I'd say 90% of my WP work could be done on AMI, even today (or one of the other earler Win WP pgms).
Excel is another matter, I regularly do work outside of the capabilies of the earlier versions in terms of rows/columns, however for most of the calc work a Visicalc etc would still do all the computational and probably a damned site faster. No heavy graphics etc to haul around.
Edited by amcmo: 1/2/2012 01:39:29 PM |
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skarpethinn
2 February 2012
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amcmo wrote:Must be something wrong with me.
I find Win 7 just fine, and have no issue with the Office Ribbon. Actually find it makes work quicker on common tasks.
Agreed; i am happy with my Win7 machine.
But then, i was also absolutely delighted with the Win ME computer i had - to this day, it is still the best computer i ever had - & i worked it into it's grave over 5 years ago.
Sony Vaio R505-DT, PIII, 15GB hard-drive, 750MB RAM, running Win Me OEM. *Sighs nostalgically
Ahh, the good old days.
Edited by skarpethinn: 2/2/2012 10:59:13 AM |
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jamecleark
8 February 2012
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This is a vintage manifestation of a new, less qualified technology shy that types did a better job than they could ever do, so to retain their self-esteem they have to create them out of record. Windows lace is a excellent (bad) example. |
