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odysseus
16 November 2011
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2nd para: "The OS doubled its share, up from 25.3 per cent in the third quarter of 2011" -- you mean the 3rd quarter of 2010, or the 2nd quarter of 2011, surely?
Comment made about the PC & Tech Authority article:
Android snatches over half of smartphone sales in Q3?
Android smashes the competition in the third quarter, as Apple sees an iPhone sales dip.
What do you think? Join the discussion. |
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amcmo
16 November 2011
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No, 3Q of 2011. Ended 30 Sept.
Does this reflect ACTUAL sales as Samsung's last report only listed shipments, not sales and there is usually some significant difference between those two figures? Other mfr's have varying policies on numbers.
Interesting side note missing from this report.
Apple achieved 65% of total profits made in the smartphone market suggesting that Android is yet to prove a viable money maker for most manufacturers. Buying market at expense of profits for most?
While I'm sure Apple would also like to be the largest OS eco in smartphones, their percentage of sales from one manufacturer only is top 3, with profits so far ahead of everyone else they're probably not losing too much sleep.
Will be interesting to see the figures for Q4 to see if buyers were waiting for the new iPhone or a drop in sales going forward.
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photohounds
16 November 2011
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Apples shipments are exactly the same, AM, They are VERY secretive about how many they flog ...
Reasonable to assume that Sammy, LG, HTC (et al.) phones are NOT sitting on the shelves, because retailers can't afford to carry inventory for long.
The activation numbers tell the story anyway - they are being SOLD, and it's an avalanche.
Buying market share is tried and true, by the way as long as a CO doesn't go stupid.
It is reasonable to deduct that Sammy et al. can make a similar quality phone far cheaper than Apple can HAVE one made. One less line of profit taking in the chain. |
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amcmo
16 November 2011
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Apple end user sales are well known as are their activations.
It is known that a large number of phones from various mfr's are sittign on warehouse shelves, same with tablets.
Samsung for one was called on that with tablets, calling the first one a runaway sucess then having to admit most had not been on-sold.
The reality is that Samsung and everyone else has had a hard time getting their pricing below Apple for phones and tablets.
Samsung only make a percentage of the guts of their phones and tablets. Even those parts they do make are made by other divisions and each runs as it's own profit centre, so no at cost transfers.
What Cook has made an art of for Apple is tying up components at the very best pricing, even as far as assisting in the finance of fab lines to guarantee the costs and first in line. while Jobs may have been the visionary, Cook has made the Apple purchasing and manufacturing agreements razor sharp in cost to the point that everyone struggles to match, hence Samsung, Acer etc begging Intel for a price reduction recently to be able to compete with Apple.
I would doubt that Samsung can can assemble a product for any significant cost benefit over Apple with through Foxconn etc. |
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amcmo
16 November 2011
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Just to put this discussion in a more accurate light.
Samsung sell 129 models of phone to achieve their market lead. Granted tey are not all Android (don't have that figure), however, get the picture?
At the end of Q3 the iPhone 4 and 3GS were the two highest selling individual models.
Obviously the Galaxy could change all that over the next year.
To archive 65% of the profits in an entire market with only 2 models at the time against the hundreds of competing models is the stuff CEO & CFO's dream of.
The next 12months may see changes to market share and profits, however claims by some fanboys that Android has beaten Apple seem a little premature
Edited by amcmo: 16/11/2011 10:23:15 PM |
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photohounds
16 November 2011
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And ... the party is cooling. You can only maintain a sales lead by having something people want.
trend for the last 6 months (in spite of petulant "I invented the glass rectangle" litigation)?
Yes, that utter BS forms a large part of the "claim" - NDAs prevent anyone being too specific.
F**ng cheek, copying the form and improving the function of the Samsung F700 and LG Prada and claiming to have been first. Simply untrue and no revisionist BS can change it. Well, not yet anyway.
That's what they've usually done - (including monetising the GUI first) ... watched the pioneering missteps of others then come in with a better mousetrap. Boot's on the other foot now, plain and simple. Others are passing, and they're in court, fighting about the past. LG and Sammy presumably are getting their own back - BY WINNING.
Apple is losing share (having had a huge chunk), the quiet achiever is steadily increasing it.
Same iArgument about "no apps for Android" was wiped out earlier in the year.
Every milestone that is knocked down, the fan boys decide something ELSE is now important.
Much as Bill annoys me, I love his relatively statesmanlike restraint in criticising Jobs (something that was never reciprocated in kind).
His quote when Jobs accused Gates of stealing the GUI he got a look at first? "... I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbour named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it."
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amcmo
16 November 2011
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Well wasn't that a petulant tirade against Apple!
Yes yu can maintain a lead by supping something people want. Now let me count how many carriers have stated that iPhone 4s is the biggest launch ever. Not at all bad for something no-one wants according to your theory!
There was nothing about the phones you mention that Apple supposedly copied apart from the fact that, like my original NEC brick, they were rectangular and black!
LG and Samsung have to actually won anything yet!
The difference between Apple and M$, Apple licensed the Xerox tech and further developed, whereas Gates just stole it and Apple's enhancements, along with aspects of GEM.
Yes Android does have a wealth of apps now (and malware) provided you check that it works on your particular version of Android and the mfr's "skin".
And before you throw in about risks on App Store, one potential was identified ( not dozens of malware per Android App store) and promptly fixed.
The fact remains that Android should be dong far better thanit is based on the dozens of mfrs and hundreds of models, so your claims of Amazon winning remains case of premature ejac!
Edited by amcmo: 16/11/2011 11:26:26 PM |
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amcmo
17 November 2011
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For the Android fanboy who does not believe Siri is amazing tech. (yes you Photo)
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6648229/siri-argument
WARNING STRONG LANGUAGE,!!! |
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photohounds
17 November 2011
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Like those Siri servers have been reported doing, that link crashed a few times - pity.
Talking face to face is preferable ... or MUST you use your iToy for all you do?
What of the privacy issues depicted in the clip!
Fan boy? If something better comes along, I would change - as long as migration was not too painful - otherwise I'd be stuck with Android, like Apple users are stuck inside theirs. I'd break out eventually, it just isn't religion for me.
Android's doing just fine even though you think it should be doing "better". I'm sure the phone makers (as opposed to resellers) will be interested to hear what they should be doing.
To unseat the incumbent in such a short time - with a better, more diverse product range not too shabby. Maybe they should relinquish that unfair adantage and NOT make what people want to BUY?
They have much ork to do - and seem to be DOING it, rather than wasting resources on petty legal fights. The challengers (er, I mean leaders now) winning where it matters - as people VOTE with their money.
Bob Dylan in "Union Sundown" - something like "Capitalism is above the law, it doesn't count if it doesn't sell."
Amazon seem to be on a winner if the alleged orders and media comments are true. Of course media reports are only true when praising "THE ONE" brand, eh?
No doubt the onslaught stalled through 2010 and half of 2011, but not as some wags have suggested that they "CAN'T compete" (they MAKE the gear bloody gear fer kissakes!!).
I see it as simple greed, like Apple and any good profit-driven enterprise, they wanted to extract maximum revenue for minimum effort, AND THAT is no way to unseat an incumbent.
For the Apple fan boy, all the stealing described above is verifiable fact ahead start in GUI came mainly from having seen it first. Good on them there.
Maybe 'revolutionising TV" will give them their next big revenue stream? Will they try to force shapes other than rectangular for other brands - who are advancing the art as well of course?
Further on the ejaculation topic, Imagine the realism of salacious movies that talk directly at the viewer! Secondly, WHO ON EARTH said no-one wants iphones?
The facts just say that fewer may be standing in line in 6 months. Best stick to the sales data and apple's observed slipping component orders, eh? The iRenassiance may succeed temporarily - only because anticipation of the COMING even more advanced Android 4 phones will probably dent sales of the current models.
Of course, you don't have to worry about that stupid battery replacement issue if you replace your iDevice every two years - meshes nicely with telcos throwing them at us as contracts expire.
Iteresting times, but that particular party is over for now. I presume (have no data on it) that Ice Cream Sandwich will circumvent all of those silly patent issues. "We've fixed all those little things, your honour" is pretty powerful in court. |
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amcmo
17 November 2011
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From what I have read, the Siri servers have only gone down a few of times, and that's a normal-enough teething problem when half the civilised world try to find out just how far the program goes. I seem to remember Google having more than it's fair share. When it's Android/Google, it's just a growing pain, when it's Apple, it's a failure! - fanboy:d
What privacy issues? Don't we hear people going on like that every day in public?
'We fixed all those things' is indeed powerful in court when the judge says, 'you admitted to that breach', here's a $multimillion slap on the face for not avoiding it in the first place! As Samsung admitted to several breaches, they face the possibility of punative damages. The European judges are a bit weak on that side, so probably will not happen.
As for the challengers winning - where people vote with their money - wait for the December quarter figures. Some are picking Apple to be back on top again. I don't care, because there is not any clear winner either way, just two very strong competitors + HTC then a whole gaggle of also-ran's who can't seem to make any money.
BTW. from the US - apparently Samsung's figures are sales into distribution (then some on to dealers, then customers), whereas Apples reports end user sales - bit like Apples and lemons (guess which is the lemon \:d/ )
Per my earlier point, Samsung phone division ASSEMBLE their gear, they buy most of the components on the open market, and some from other divisions, with that other division's profit margin in there. Each division is a cost and profit centre that has to be fed. In the Korean financial crisis a few years back, Samsung got into financial strife and if I remember correctly were hammered by the Korean gov't for inter-division cost manipulation and funds swapping.
Concensus from industry commentators with a far greater understanding of costs than you, is Apple's buy price on many components is below even Samsung's (due to their financing factories and up front payments, plus just damned hot negotiation)and their cost of manufacture from Foxconn (who has some factories running multiple shifts just for Apple at lower than Korean wage rates) is on par or below Samsung.
Regardless, the figures speak for themselves, 65% of all profits made in the sector.... Slice and dice it any way you like, at present there is only one sector profit 'winner'.
If the Asian mfr's (apart from Samsung, HTC) had to deal with US style shareholder action, they would not be in the phone business as they's be swamped with class action suits from their shareholders. Some may have a long (very long?) term plan that Asian shareholderes will put up with, time will tell.
Amazon's Fire is indeed a winner, though at this stage no competition to the iPad - 2 different markets, but shows the power of a company who like Apple control the whole buying experience - I've discussed that previously and anticipated their success if you read previous posts.
Of course, bad point for the wider Android market is that some 28% of developers are looking at focussing on apps exclusively for Fire with it's unique fork of Android. Apps that will/may not work on any other Android device. I am actually a fan of Amazon, (a control freak company like Apple by your standards) because of their ability to put together pretty good product (none is absolutely jaw dropping) and a superb buying experience (that can be jaw dropping!), though for best benefit, you have to have a US ship and IP address (lucky me:lol:)
Edited by amcmo: 17/11/2011 12:51:30 PM |
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photohounds
17 November 2011
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Half the civilised world? Give us a break.
Yep Google's gmail v1 for iToy was a crock. Hopefully fixed, didn't affect me.
2+ strong competitors is good for us all. Apples lemons? Easy, they are both fruit. Much of Sammy's stuff is MADE in-house, and some outsourced. Even cars outsource quite a bit of component input. Apple actually makes what? The fruit logo and the ads? Oh yeah, the shopping for parts AND assemblers.
I also could see apple on top in Dec 2011, and can see Android v4 stall sales of current android phones to at least some degree. Those buyers want the best and latest and that's just around the corner. Regardless of sales, apple fanboys will have all the retro-reasons - all bow down ...
Profit - that difference between all costs and how much you CAN charge. 65% you say? The supposed costs to make an IP4 that were spruiked in the press are, as I have maintained, complete guesses and were as I have maintained very much higher than it actually costs to make. So fleece, but offer the NEXT reseller little margin. Nice, like SONY used to do (and still might).
Planning: decades ahead vs. a quarter year ahead. You mean how the Japanese planned to dominate the car industry by the 1990s - which started in the 1960s?
Fire/B+N toys will be a sales competitor to ipad. Many would buy an iToy if there was nothing else on offer (and did), but some will choose Fire or B+N as it does what they want. These toys WILL drain some sales from iToy.
Apple component buys are slowing, what do you think THAT means?
Agree with Amazon's buying experience and quality, Apple too, but their battery replacement scheme still SUCKS.
Edited by photohounds: 17/11/2011 03:39:30 PM |
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amcmo
17 November 2011
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Oh Photo, so predictable.
Let's address you last comment first.
Component buys are slowing - a comment by one investment house, with no credibility whatsoever and no basis in fact - already discredited!
Back to other points.
1/2 the civilised world, we've already established that Android Fanboys don't qualify, neither do camel herders in Uzbekistan, US Republicans, the Greens, Bob Katter's party. 1/2 of what's left, seems about right to me....:lol:
Apple doesn't NEED to make in house. It's found a far more cost effective way to do it all. Remember they used to have their own very hi-tech factories. Efficiency and profit grew when they closed them.
Pull your Samsung phone apart and have a look at how many parts DON'T have the Samsung logo.
The profit in the mobile industry is not just about the assembly cost of a phone. It's about the profit made in the entire chain by that mfr. I won't bother going into it, however there's wealth of data out there. FACT remains Apple makes 65% of all profits in the smartphone market, or do you know something how many expert analysts don't?
As for planning ahead. That is one of the strengths of both Jobs and Cook (possibly even more so Cook). Show me ANY Apple product or strategy that is based on only the next 2-3 quarters.
Amazon & BN are not true competitors, different market. Obviously there will be some who were on the edge of going iPad who will decide the cheaper alternative suits, however by and large I would expect their sales to be in addition to iPad, not in place of. Additional set of customers entering the market.
That's one of the issues with Android Fanboys. You trumpet every single increase in sales/market share as a win against Apple, overlooking the fact that Apple continue to grow total sales significantly very quarter, with the only blip being the slight drop off of iPhone sales last quarter, however given the number of people I personally know who held off for the 4s, I would agree with most commentators, just a blip caused by people waiting.
Yes, dozens of phone mfr's with in one case 129 models, should by any metric have a greater market share than one mfr who focusses on 3 models only. Yes, Apple jumped to a huge lead (and some Apple fanboys made stupid claims of world dominance), mainly because all the incumbents were sitting with haveing a quiet little w...., waiting for Apple to fall flat on it's face. Didn't happen, so a mad rush to catch up by any means. The market is getting towards where it should have been all along if the incumbents hadn't been asleep at the wheel. Didn't have to be Android, could have been Symbian or WinPhone of they hadn't lost the plot and left the door wide open for an Android rush. Just was that Android was free, pretty face and a good marketing strategy.
Sorry, much as you like to portray it as an Android 'Win' there's no win or lose in it, apart from the many mfr's who can't make a profit at their phone business. LG, Moto, Sony.... (they are losing)
Get over the fixation of Apple somehow having to die for your cherished Android to be a success.
Edited by amcmo: 17/11/2011 04:50:39 PM |
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photohounds
19 November 2011
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Interestingly skewed perspective ...
1: It was the many mags that trumpeted this milestone not the alleged fans. Milestones of this nature were trumpeted by them during apple's ascension to the mobile throne and during its brief tenure. For most of us, there's no fan-boyish "against" Apple chant. The mags are simply measuring progress relative to all other phone OSs and over 50% against ALL others is impressive. Of course progress against the top dog is relevant in such a discussion. Dragging out precepts to dilute the achievement is irrelevant, those milestones may me passed mid next year anyway.
2: There are many "true competitors" now. Sammy has apparently revitalised their 10.1 (a better sized) machine machine to LOOK a bit different which helps to get around those idiotic "look alike" claims you and others have maintained don't exist. Sammy claim "the case" isn't the cause, but there's an NDA that stops them from saying differently. Therefore we have no access to facts other than those observable.
(The hate drivel above is best added to the Johnny Adams fora on computerworld ... now there's a hater! He gets press and it seems a fair few deranged followers. Their Android "opposition guy" is much more measured - read, compare their commentary, decide who (and which group) is rabid for yourself.)
3: Tablets will look similar by definition - as the ipad did to its predecessors. Time to lay that hoary old "copy" chestnut to bed, it's WOFTAM.
4: It seems the 2 falsified images, that apple presented in 2 court cases, presumably to make the best competitor's devices appear even more similar to theirs, adds no weight to the "glass rectangle with icons look" being at the heart of the case - at least with fan-boys. (that NDA again)
5: The utter stupidity of most of the apple "claim" in the minds of fan-boys simply does not exist because they have taken sides regardless of that is presented, and whether it is falsified or not. I say, "you lie to me, I don't believe you any more". So I (and the courts) have some have reason not to believe apple in this case.
6: I don't want apple to "fail" and they will not, their participation is good and necessary to prevent someone else dominating in that unhealthy way. I have expressed that in this thread and others many times, wiping out that hatred mantra. Time to remove those particular ejaculatory responses from this discussion once and for all, as you KNOW them to be fact-free ramblings.
7: Most of us are simply happy there are other players and that people are not forced to "choose" from just one product.
8: Not liking some of a company's "strategies" because they damage competition, and in some cases are plain idiotic, makes no-one a "hater" - except in the mind of those who hate competition against their favourite (or is that, "chosen"?) brand.
P.S I thought I'd try the android-compatible version of this magazine a month or two back. It works just fine and is readable enough.
Edited by photohounds: 19/11/2011 08:52:08 AM |
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rubaiyat
19 November 2011
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photohounds wrote:Reasonable to assume that Sammy, LG, HTC (et al.) phones are NOT sitting on the shelves, because retailers can't afford to carry inventory for long.
Not true. I bought a WD TV Media Device and the warranty had expired it was that old.
Quote:It is reasonable to deduct that Sammy et al. can make a similar quality phone far cheaper than Apple can HAVE one made. One less line of profit taking in the chain.
That is supposition, not fact and Apple is famous for its extremely efficient, procurement and design. It is also selling the largest quantities of any given model. Apple selects its manufacturers by competitive tender and seems to get extremely good value. Korea is not China which means if it has to match Apple's costs it will have to subcontract exactly as Apple has. The Chinese manufacturers have not yet developed the design skills or innovation to go it alone, so are reliant on 2nd rate copying, or having the design and manufacturing processes being supplied to them.
The point is that it is irrelevant in the long run as Apple's growth figures are large by any measure. Lumping all the Android devices in one category does not conceal they are a disparate and not necessarily compatible assortment of many manufacturers making a wide range of products, not all successful.
Publishing is an example. Churning out product to have it end up on the remainders tables is not a success story. HP was a moot example of this. |
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photohounds
19 November 2011
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Retailers shun old inventory like the plague. Was what you got was on special, or a run out?
It couldn't be that ONLY the documentation itself was old? I've seen THAT many times.
Pull the device apart and check the 'tested' sticker - compare its date to your purchase date.
Any difference less than about 4 months means FRESH. The stuff is shipped, warehoused, distributed and otherwise handled. As you know, this takes time.
The fact remains that no MAKER will manufacture for another company and expect no profit - ergo they can make it significantly cheaper for themselves.
HP got stuck with a lot of stock, not planned that way I'm sure. |
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rubaiyat
19 November 2011
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Success has many measures not necessarily mutually compatible.
Apple makes extremely successful and high quality products which I consider a success. Every now and then I stray to try the competition because it gets talked up so much, usually, not always, to be sharply reminded why I mostly buy Apple. The difference is often absolutely amazing. Some of the claims made by Apple's competitors fall so far short on delivery, I put it close to fraud and deception.
My son is a trainee chef, working extremely hard to become a top chef in high quality restaurants.
If the argument of success in that industry was purely on profit, number of customers, quantity of product shifted he should forget fine dining and just get a Domino Pizza franchise. No skill, no quality, no nutrition, just simply bad. In fact in the long term actually dangerous to their customers, but extremely popular for the bulk of consumers who are not too bright, are badly educated, and very suggestible, as long as what they are being told goes with both physical and mental laziness.
There are a lot of cockroaches in this world and very few gazelles. |
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rubaiyat
19 November 2011
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photohounds wrote:Retailers shun old inventory like the plague. Was what you got was on special, or a run out?
Not particularly, it was a current model as part of an overall discount on all electrical products, and I only found out when I needed to log on to Western Digitals support site and it wouldn't accept the serial number.
Where datedness of stock is obvious, like at Borders, the vast amount of stock that has been sitting on shelves is painfully apparent.
It is not like wine improving the longer you hang onto it.
photo I don't know if you are in business, or have ever been in business, but the overwhelming number of businesses and products out there fail. They may look busy, they may have all the appearances of success, appear to have the numbers, but the administrators can tell you the real story. A story that isn't talked about outside of the particular industry.
The key indicator I consider important is the number of repeat customers. In other words the educated customers, not the shot in the dark, first time buyers making mistakes in the foolish hope of getting a momentary thrill of a bargain. Apple wins these hands down, showing that experienced customers chose Apple. That is why the opposition works so hard at persuading their customers to never try Apple through all sorts of FUD. And which is why Apple has had so much success with their Apple Stores where they freely let anyone try their products unhindered, bypassing all the usual industry shenanigans.
Try that anywhere else.
Samsung doesn't get it in their Me-Too stores. Their products are on Apple like displays (as if the superficial appearance is the key), but with sales people who don't let you just try. Because to really try is not to buy.
Edited by rubaiyat: 19/11/2011 09:38:58 AM |
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photohounds
19 November 2011
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Maybe Ruby ... There's no doubt that apple presents its gear well and that helps sales a *LOT*.
Yep managed at a large retail CE business and a couple of smaller ones in a previous life. We got rid of old stock as fast as we could once we realised that it was a dead duck:) |
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amcmo
19 November 2011
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Many mags that trumpeted the success, yes like this one with sensationalist headlines! 'seize, overpower' etc.
The reality is, by any measure Android is a success, however, given the number of manufacturers the inescapable fact is, they should have been there much earlier if the hype was believable, and Apple should not have been losing market share, but also sales. The iPhone is still not available from stock at most US carriers, with a 1-2 week wait. Nothing like your claims of revisionism.
The Apple fanboys had every right to crow that 1mfr, with 2 models had such a dominance in the marketplace against the might of Google and every other major (entrenched) phone mfr. They have almost as much right with 3 models.
The growth in Android seems mainly from new entrants to the market and if stats are to be believed almost no churn from Apple owners (and they can't all be mindless fanboys).
There is a statistically much greater churn rate from Android to Apple, again if the stats are to be believed.
You keep going back to the supposedly doctored drawings, already covered and acceptable in the context of the intended use, as allowed by the courts.
Btw, ever been into an Apple store? Tried the endless demo, with assistance from trained staff ( as opposed to trained monkeys), the ability to use their wifi, use your own PC and get help with the smallest problems. That's part of the reason for the growth of new Apple fans converting from other platforms. It's not just about good presentation, but also solid products that work when demo'd. I've been in the Regent St London store ( no Aussie store to date) twice and amazed by the effectiveness of the whole process. No wonder it's a case study in so many MBA programs.
As for the supposed NDA, are you saying, Samsung are claiming there's an altogether different reason, but thy can't say why? BS. If that were so they would have had a special hearing with the judge to cover that in closed session, and she would have ruled based on that, with a statement to effect. While an NDA can stop public discussion, it cannot block the production of evidence in court. The courts have the right to demand all evidence.
I'm as happy as anyone for there to be plenty of competition, provided it s based on Genuine competition and not copying, and don't bother with the old Apple copied, what, a move prop that did nothing, win tablet that had a painful interfacecdesigned for stylus use, and a dog of a phone, which only similarity to the iPhone was being rectangular with a touch screen.
As for old stock, I have worked as a supplier to the likes of Harvey's etc.
From past experience the vast majority of the sale items, and most everything on their special 6-9pm nights for IT products is 1-2 model old product, provided on a special price, sometimes 'sale or return' basis, often with an addition head office rebate. The suppliers do not super discount current models unless they are a commercial flop.
Edited by amcmo: 19/11/2011 11:16:58 AM |
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amcmo
19 November 2011
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Photo,
'no maker will manufacter for no profit' agree entirely, however the fundamental error in your judgement is assuming that Samsung can assemble their phone/PC more cheaply than Foxconn.
Having worked with factories in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Thailand and China I can tell you there is a world of difference in cost.
Taiwan can be cheaper than Korea, China is much cheaper than Taiwan. Thailand in some instances cheaper than China, as is Indonesia and Vietnam. Haven't put work with the last two, however investigating.
The reality is the likes of Foxconn can assemble a phone, add it's profit margin and still be cheaper than the most effective Korean factory. I have personal experience there. |
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photohounds
19 November 2011
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Sure ... they MAKE the bits, keeping the profits for themselves, THEN outsource- Voila lower costs.
It still adds up to a cost advantage, no matter how you slice it. |
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amcmo
19 November 2011
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You still don't get it Photo,
Samsung only make SOME of the bits. They buy in a significant part of their BOM, and anecdotal evidence suggests on some, they pay more than Apple do.
The parts they buy from other Samsung divisions, they likely pay a commercial transfer cost, so there is a profit on the device in the other division.
Then you have the added labour and overhead costs in Korea.
End result, no matter how you try to justify it, they have no cost advantage, and again anecdotal suggests they have a cost disadvantage.
You need to get over the fixation with MAKE. I can show you any number of companies who insist on making in house and cost themselves far more by putting ego above efficiency. Apple was one of those companies.
You also need to get over treating all the various Samsung divisions as one company. They are individual profit centres, with their own cost structures to cover, profit margins to make. |
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photohounds
20 November 2011
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That may be accurate, but their apparent success against a strong and controlling incumbent, still implies some advantage. Price Range and quality would all figure in that mix.
Samsung make processors and RAM and screens, don't they? Processors and screens, even 3.5 inch ones, are easily the most costly parts in a phone, the ram would most likely figure fairly strongly too. AN advantage in those components represents a real advantage. |
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rubaiyat
20 November 2011
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So photo, by your argument evil Samsung must be ripping us off when they don't give us smartphones equal to iPhones but at a fraction of the price? |
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amcmo
20 November 2011
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Interesting Stat out at the same time as the market percentage figures being discussed.
In business phone sales, Apple leads at 45%, Android 3rd at 21%.
These figures ignored by the "Headline is Everything" press while trumpeting Androids success overall.
Seems Android owns the bottom end of the market for those who can't afford a real smartphone and a segment Apple stay away from.
Despite all Photo claims to know about Samungs supposed ability to make phones cheaper than Apple the fact remains Apple are making 65% of all profit in the market segment. Fact backed up by every analyst!
Now if it were me, I'd be very happy owning that profit percentage while everyone else fought each other in the rush for the bottom.
Edited by amcmo: 20/11/2011 04:44:55 PM |
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photohounds
20 November 2011
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rubaiyat wrote:So photo, by your argument evil Samsung must be ripping us off when they don't give us smartphones equal to iPhones but at a fraction of the price?
Ruby,
Samsung (et al.) phones are already better in many ways, particularly in the material sense. No puny screens unless you buy a VERY, VERY cheap one. Dunno if Samsung is evil, but being a company, that's always a possibility :-$
I know, I know ... 3 and a bit inches is the RIGHT size for any phone screen Jobs said so, and the fan boys all chant that mantra! They will do so until just before until it becomes obvious that apple will play catch up.
Do you ENJOY squinting at a little screen? I don't. I had years of it and would have sprung for an S2 if I realised how easy and good Android would be, contrary to the naysayer's bleatings. No drama, Galaxy is very useful, but I don't spend all day obsessing over it.
The Galaxy S2 is MORE than good enough to be a KING of phones at the moment (and not just the value for money proposition ... $39 on some light usage contracts).
We have plenty of apple, Samsung, HTC and LG phones at work to compare - some love this game. Iphone is a good phone no question, and seems adequate for many, but side by side with the others - let alone an S2 - that impression fades quite quickly. A big screen contributes a lot to usability.
Voice? I can afford to "lose" twelve seconds a day typing into my phone, instead of talking more to my phone than to people. Voice control works well enough on Galaxy phones, and I might use the in-car feature a bit. Like Siri, it is nifty but not essential.
Re that other :-({|= :-({|= :-({|= argument? Apple leads at 45%, Android 3rd at 21% ... Penetrating business has always lagged consumer sales.
Considering a 5 year incumbent head start, they are doing very well to have that. A 9-12 month lag seems about on the mark. That momentum is likely building up at the expected pace .... I left my crystal ball at work, but I'd say by next fin year end, we'll see Business Android repeating its strong consumer growth.
THEN what will "the bleat" be - wait for the new iphone???
I applaud both teams when it's due, here and in sport, even when my son is on one of the teams. Credit where it's due, rather than claiming credit for all that's good - as some teams and phone assemblers do. A great pity that they wallow in their legal drivel while the WORLD moves on.
Edited by photohounds: 20/11/2011 05:48:10 PM |
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rubaiyat
20 November 2011
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photohounds wrote:Considering a 5 year incumbent head start, they are doing very well to have that.
Woah! I'm having trouble following this! Didn't Apple steal all the ideas and designs, which makes Samsung the incumbent with the lead?
Is this one of those magic revolving doors where you mysteriously come out in front, after having gone in behind?
Quote: I left my crystal ball at work, but I'd say by next fin year end, we'll see Business Android repeating its strong consumer growth.
I'd have that crystal ball looked at, we've had a enough "predictions" from it to think that there was a reason you got it cheap from Al's Bargain Magic Swamp in Fyshwick. |
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amcmo
20 November 2011
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It's interesting you say big is best.
I have an 11".... No let's not go there....
Reviewers seem split on that with many finding 3.5 being the sweet spot if single handed and my less than 20-20 vision has no squinting involved.
Even more interesting,our accountant gave up his Galaxy 2S for an iPhone.
He got the Galaxy on recommendation from the Telstra shop. Wasn't overly happy with it, but then tried my PA's iPhone 4 and decided to swap after a week of thinking on it. More than happy with his 4S.
I came close to going with the Galaxy, however decided it wasn't pocket friendly for my gear and the iPhone just felt more rugged. Having had the 4s for around 4 weeks, best phone I've had.
I'm sure the Galaxy would also have been a good phone, though in side by side testing, it had no benefit over the 4.
Previous points and the added security were deciding factors.
Strang your comments abut plenty of phones at work to compare, our experience is much the opposite.
Our company has been on free choice for phones for the past year, with 2 Androids (2S and HTC Wildfire) being selected and now both replaced by their users.
Edited by amcmo: 20/11/2011 07:07:40 PM |
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amcmo
20 November 2011
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So Photo,
I guess you're really piss.d at Samsung and Motorola doing everything to put Apple out of business with their abuse of FRAND patents ad generally frivolous suits.
Moto is claiming that a patent for synching to your PC also covers iCloud despite the 'cloud' not even being discussed when the original patent was issued.
They haven't bothered going after anyone else. Guess, despite not officially being owned by Google yet they are already doing their bidding and trying to stifle competition - works both ways Photo.
C'mon I expect dozens of posts from you blasting this frivolous lawsuit.
You can insert in every thread,even when nothing to do with phones or tablets. Just scan back over your anti-Apple lawsuits posts for reminders
Edited by amcmo: 20/11/2011 07:23:40 PM |
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photohounds
20 November 2011
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Ruby, as you know, apple were the first to make a big splash with devices that looked/worked like this. Others (who tested the waters FIRST) didn't get traction. Apple did, and this makes them the incumbent in the minds of most. In the case of idiots it also makes them the inventor.
AM, you are right patent abuse on both sides, tit for tat BS in my opinion, but the ferocity was certainly exacerbated by the product bans and I don't support their retaliation at all. It hasn't worked well for apple, if grabbing more market share was the aim. Oh, yes, it is not about money is it? It is what's right that matters. hee hee - I have a bridge you might like - cheap.
Your accountant, eh? Well if that's what suits him, great. We should all follow suit??? At work, people who are replacing iphones seem split in their replacement purchases, sorry about that.
All I've ever predicted was that Android would grow fast and challenge apple. No cracks in the ball. |
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amcmo
20 November 2011
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Photo,
Something for you to consider when claiming Android overwhelming iPhone.
A quick check since the announcement of the last figures.
Every single free phone or low cost phone offer currently available is either non smartphone, or bottom end Android, with a big push by the companies to promote the smartphone. Even some higher end Android. No IPhone freebies that I have found.
The whole idea of the smartphone promotion is to suck users into data use and higher charges. IMHO
Seems a good part of the overwhelming switch to Android is the giveaway end of the market and carrier commercial strategy.
Not disputing they are moving a lot of phones, just that the switch is for a large number based solely on getting a pretty phone for nothing or next to nothing ( or so they think). Smart marketing strategy.
Interesting, your company having so many swapping from iPhone to Android. Runs against all the Trends worldwide in business phones. Perhaps your company is years ahead of the rest of us.
Edited by amcmo: 20/11/2011 10:42:01 PM |
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photohounds
20 November 2011
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No doubt they want to sell bandwidth (or oversell it to be precise).
I doubt my co. is 'ahead', but is something I can see without being interpreted by the press you seem to believe 'against' apple.
Here are more of those anti-apple reviews you believe are trying to force innocent people away from the holy grail ...
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Review/22788,samsung-d500.aspx
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Review/136168,samsung-omnia-i900-why-its-no-match-for-the-iphone.aspx
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Review/172621,samsungs-galaxy-icon-i7500-fails-to-outshine-smartphone-competition.aspx
When someone replaces an android phone they've been happy with - they'll likely choose? Ta dah...
Most, but not your accountant [noted already] ARE happy as even the cheap the Android phones which are said to be good for the money. I don't know as I don't travel there.
Son's school bought lots of ipads at an apparently VERY attractive price earlier this year, over a hundred I believe. What do you think many of those kids will want for Christmas?
Education or repeat sales being the motive? Good on them for thinking ahead - as the challengers are in the mobile phone blood bath.
Yamaha used to do this to push their musical products - get in at the ground floor, look after the teacher and try to keep the musician for life.
Still watching a 26" TV are you? Well it would have to be better than one of those new advanced BIG TVs, seeing smaller is better - or is that the 11" to which you refer? :) :) :) |
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amcmo
21 November 2011
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Actually Photo,
Fixated on size again!!!
I wouldn't believe a review by PCA&_ as most read as nothing more than the press release revised.
As for the trends for replacing phones, stats from the US, whcih isa the biggest market show that a significantly larger percentage of Android users replace with an iPhone than the other way around, so that shoots that point down in flames.
Bigger is better in some circumstances, My TV screen is the correct size based on the distance from lounge to screen (there is a perfect ratio for such) and it's not an inch larger than needs be (unlike some who go for the humongous units). On a phone, there is a point screen size all comes down to penis envy!
Bit like the guy who has to get a Ferrari/Big V8/whatever to compensate for his insignificant 'equipment'.
Remember the NSW anti-hoon add with the girls lifting their pinkie?
Seems VERY appropriate to this argument...
I suggest starting a movement - every time someone whips out their 4.gazzilian screen size phone to try impress the world, just lift your pinkie at them!:lol: |
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rubaiyat
21 November 2011
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photohounds wrote:Ruby, as you know, apple were the first to make a big splash with devices that looked/worked like this. Others (who tested the waters FIRST) didn't get traction. Apple did, and this makes them the incumbent in the minds of most. In the case of idiots it also makes them the inventor.
I DON'T "know" that Apple was "just first to make a big splash" in the regards that the others never made it all just work.
THAT is what stuck in everybody's mind.
EXACTLY the same thing that happened with the iPod.
People couldn't help but notice!
ALL of which is irrelevant to the crazy man's notion that if in fact all the others had beaten Apple, why did it take them soooooooooooo long to counter with competitive products? After all, all they needed to do was get some PR and pretty packaging, right?
It's soooooooooooo puzzling. Please explain. |
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photohounds
21 November 2011
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Yep, locking it all down helped make them king - it was a good move in the short term.
And now, Amazon seem to have struck a chord with buyers - you know those people with the loot to 'vote' - not us commentators, guessing and jostling on the sidelines. They will also 'make it work'.
Leaving androids for tiny screens? - Maybe, but the sales figures say that for every one of 'those', there are three who go the other way. Perhaps the ones 'leaving the guru' are all stupid. I'll not bother dignifying the other size implications.
The ipod was technology legally stolen from an inventor who did not work for apple. They saw a crack and drove an axe through it - a big axe. Nothing for the pot, nothing for the heart, and sweet FA for the inventor. Successful though ... that's one thing. But it is coupled with greed, greed, greed - and this is to be admired in its entirety? That's your business.
That "correct" TV ratio was, I thought, worked out with MUCH lower screen resolutions.
It certainly has sweet FA (there's that phrase again) to do with phone sizes, unless you stick one end up your nostril. A Galaxy s2 just wouldn't fit in any case. More readable text up to some (as yet to be determined) point is better to read. That 'point' certainly exceeds a limp 3 inches ...
Ever been to any Imax theatres, breaking all the rules there ... great impact, though.
Nothing to 'explain', it is happening, we are merely observing it. Some of us make lame excuses to pretend it isn't so. Again, view is your business.
Edited by photohounds: 21/11/2011 09:14:08 PM |
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rubaiyat
22 November 2011
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Blah, blah, blah, so why did it take them soooooooooooo long to counter with competitive products? |
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photohounds
22 November 2011
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"soooooooooooo long"? Blah indeed...
Lead time?
Being burnt at the first (INNOVATIVE) tries?
Having to then re-convince management?
Being caught with your pants down?
Big deal and a very unhealthy fixation.
All lessons Apple learned from without actually having to "DO IT FIRST".
No one's perfect. Most of us have good years and bad - and miss things we wish we hadn't.
Remember Apple was at one tine on its knees under Job's stewardship?
These are apple's best years.
The others are now beginning to lead with a diverse range of devices and price points are going to make it hard. Rumour gas that Amazon has a phone and 10" tablet in the works 15-20% cheaper than Apple, apparently.
Ya think Apple can do the $200 tablet now? Enough content of their own?
Apps are only part of the story long term - these are mainly consumption devices!
Amazon, Sony can, and maybe even Google can.
Speaking of contend and developments there ...
Pity they price music the same as apple for now. Maybe it is to appease the recording industry?
Time will tell.
In more of his puerile fanboy hogwash, Johnny Adams says Apple deserves credit for Google being ABLE to launch a music service.
Michael Robertson bore the brunt of the recording industry's wrath.
The recent MP3.COM rulings have helped OPEN this little monopoly up. |
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rubaiyat
22 November 2011
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More Blah, blah, blah.
So I still want to know, why did it take them soooooooooooo long to counter with competitive products?
How do you get from supposedly so far in front (in your imagination) to so far behind. In the bat of an eye.
We'll have to start calling you Gunner.
Samsung is gunner do this, Android is gunner do that, Amazon is gunner produce a killer out of the bag (turned out to be just a stuffed rabbit).
What are you gunner come up with next in photohounds' Revisionist History of Modern Technology?
Let me get this clear, I am not "Apple Everything". I pick and reject as I please. I just want the competition to be genuinely competitive. I am disgusted at just what they think they can get away with by cheating and most of all lying about products that nearly all badly designed and manufactured junk in some form or other. Heck I'd like Apple to lift its game where it falls short.
95% of people may be natural born fools (some of this market Apple is now very successfully tapping into) but I'd rather see them raised to a better level than we all have to stoop down to theirs. |
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photohounds
22 November 2011
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Revisionist? Good one - all easily proven "revisionist" - on the door at Apple sales and marketing - we invented this, we invented that, and forget about the poor sods who DID.
And NOW? Apple ARE lifting their game - they are copying a larger phone form factor that their competitors lead with - even though they 'knew' it was "all wrong". That's revisionist for you.
Why did it take "soooooooooooo long"? those 9-12 months ...
Lead time to revise the old (failed) products ideas?
Being burnt at the first (INNOVATIVE) tries?
Having to then re-convince management?
Being caught with your pants down?
Getting it into the countries, past customs and on the shelves?
There's some mystery above?
"Big deal" and a very unhealthy fixation.
Original, ruby. I'm not gunner do anything - other than build some more hi fi maybe not for maybe a year.
Samsung and Android gave DONE quite well in spite of the BS. 2012 will see some interesting trends when people see what CAN be done, instead of what they 'should' have.
so ... why did it take apple "soooooooooooo long" to get the screen size right?
Not even a difficult design job.
Edited by photohounds: 22/11/2011 05:17:54 PM |
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amcmo
23 November 2011
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Photo,
Who is saying that a large screen is right.
A good number of commentators believe 3.5 to be the sweet spots for single handed.
So Apple have chosen not to do penis envy screens at this stage. |
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rubaiyat
23 November 2011
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That's more a sign of desperation clutching at the screen size. Personally I don't carry a manbag and like a phone that slips in a normal pocket.
I don't have an iPhone but I have an iTouch which is the same size and it si very comfortable.
Apple has stated that it is working on devices that double the resolution as this obviates the need for developers to work with odd multiples as in the muddled free-for-all in Android. When they are available they'll sell them.
Blind Freddy could see that Apple's products came out of the blue and turned the industry on its head. But then Freddy doesn't suffer from the ultimate blindness, the one where the viewer projects their prejudices on the subject, irregardless of what is actually there. |
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photohounds
23 November 2011
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amcmo wrote:Photo,
Who is saying that a large screen is right.
A good number of commentators believe 3.5 to be the sweet spots for single handed.
So Apple have chosen not to do penis envy screens at this stage.
They have, at east according to the pundits... We'll see soon enough.
A galaxy S2 fits EASILY in a standard pocket. The new phone isn't much 'bigger' (unless you count quad core), that allegedly beautiful screen just goes closer to the edge.
One handed - always the best way to use a phone? - oh yes the other's for driving :)
Anyway Swype means that you can easily do that unless you're 11.
Out of the blue? Revise the predecessors away if you want to.
repeat ... forget about the poor sods who DID (invent) and laugh all the way to the bank on someone else's idea. [-x Phones was a group effort at best with one company making a marketing masterpiece out of it - until now.
Edited by photohounds: 23/11/2011 05:18:36 PM |
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amcmo
24 November 2011
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Photo, you poor misguided sod.
Reality (no matter how many times you say otherwise) was that Apple was the first to commercialise a touch screen phone with a simple, intuitive interface that appealed to ordinary people.
Don't bother to get on your fanboy hobby-horse, over 200 million people cannot be all fanboys, nor misguided fools etc etc. The fact that the iPhone enjoys the highest retention rate of any phone proves otherwise.
Apple may well end up going a larger screen given the number of people easily sucked into the bigger is better hype. One thing about Apple is that when they are not leading a market in adoption, they also keep a close eye on consumer trends.
If the poor misguided suckers demand a larger screen they will provide one.
Me, I'm happy with 3.5" and an easy fit in my jeans or suit pockets.
Edited by amcmo: 24/11/2011 12:17:26 PM |
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rubaiyat
24 November 2011
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photo you are stuck somewhere between demanding the world's largest midget and the world's smallest giant.
Given those are your specifications, either way the results should be...
Designed by photohound
Features:
Large beverage holders
Little ball on top the aerial
Bowling mascot on the hood
Horns that play La Cucaracha
Sound-proof bubble for the kids
Huge motor
Big Fins |
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photohounds
24 November 2011
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Apple WILL release a non-puny screen phone next year. You can keep laughing then - at your own folly.
YOUR car looks funny, Ruby. A REAL phone fits in normal pockets, puny screens better for purses.
Then first to successfully commercialise? Never argued THAT point.
FANATICS ensure apple products are serially replaced - by loyal fans. Good for them, the rational world doesn't care.
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amcmo
25 November 2011
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Photo,
Like all Android fanboys you imply that repeat Apple customers are fanboys.
Yes, there are some, who line up for every new release, however, the vast majority are normal people who find aproduct that suits them and see past all the Anbdroid hype, my screens bigger than yours shit and buy what works for them.
I understand the total Apple customer base is now around 300M and climbing. To claim even a substantial minority of them would be FANATICS is stupidity in the extreme.
ps. C'mon Photo, I just know you're dying to comment on my thread as to why Android's need larger screens.....
Edited by amcmo: 25/11/2011 09:46:38 AM |
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photohounds
25 November 2011
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Android's need larger screens.....?
Nope CUSTOMERS do. If Android makers don't oblige the customers will jump, apparently being less loyal 'fanboyish' than apple adherents. I'm not brand loyal at all. Samsung make a very good phone, at a good price that's all.
I'd jump in an instant if it didn't do what I wanted. While it took them a while to prise ne from my crusty (once leading) Treo smartphone, I can't see how it makes me a fan - in the slightest. I DO have a soft spot for open source, I will admit that.
The internet is substantially built on open source. Yes, in every facet if its infrastructure and services, in SPITE of the proprietary interests trying repeatedly to control something they did NOT create.
A good achievement in my opinion. |
