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photohounds
26 September 2011
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That's the way to Status Quo - or better.
Cease being a low value-added maker for others and blitz the market with your own excellent product.
10 million people (not fan boy BS in a forum) have voted with their money.
Impressive, but I'll bet iphone mania will put a dent in it for a while. Bring on the quad processor models ...
Comment made about the PC & Tech Authority article:
Samsung Galaxy S II sales top 10 million?
The Samsung Galaxy S II smartphone has sold 10 million units worldwide since it debuted in April.
What do you think? Join the discussion. |
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amcmo
26 September 2011
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At first glance it looks impressive, and guess it is.
HOWEVER!
No FAN BOY BS anywhere, but hasn't the year old iPhone4 sold something over 30mil first half this year, with 50-55Mil expected in the last half of the year.
Thats 5 times as many people voting with their wallets, and no Photo, you can't claim they're all Fan Boys.
Again, this mag makes a headline, gives out a few facts, but fails to finish the article with a meaningful market comparison.
While 10mil is good in anyone's book, it is far from compelling.
BTW, our outside accountant was in Friday last week. He has one of these and hates it! Didn't go into detail - as I was headed out.
Personally think being an accountant he's an particular sub-species that are inept with such tech, but interesting f/b from a user.:lol: |
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photohounds
26 September 2011
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No question the incumbent is a great seller. a few years of good history help. Now there's good quality competition. And .. the original Galaxy S is apparently doing OK, albiet in the hands of fewer sellers.
Samsung has realised where the loot is, making it under your OWN company Logo, not as a supplier to others for others.
They won't miss the 7 billion, the profit will be easily made up by rising sales.
Possibly 10 times as much loot TO THEM for every one of their own phones they sell as opposed to making bits for someone else to 'add value' by clipping it into a case, boxing it and marketing it.
CPU SCREEN and then RAM probably represent 90% of the cost of making phones?
I admit I had to learn a bit when I got mine, as the bloody things can do a lot - (all brands).
Maybe I'll ask MY accountant to see if he's tech savvy:) |
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amcmo
26 September 2011
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They will miss the $7Bn big time. regardless of what they achive in phone sales, they have potentially gutted $7Bn and much more out of the semiconductor division. Samsung are just investing $10Bn in a new flash line, but are losing their largest customer with purchases on an ever steeper scale.
Taking average margins for Samsung semi sales and dividing by the estimated profit of say $150 per phone (might be a bit high), it takes around 17M phones each year to make up the estimated profit that Samsung would make from Apple. That's every year. So the first 17M or so phones each year are just to make up the money they potentially lose from annoying Apple.
You could say that, if Samsung had been a little smarter with their designs and made an effort to not look like an Apple copy, they would have had the phone sales PLUS the $7Bn per year and growing. What would Apples purchases next year have been $10Bn?)
If I were the Samsung CEO, I'd be asking more than a few serious questions and possibly holding a few public executions.
Edited by amcmo: 26/9/2011 04:28:14 PM |
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Haratu
26 September 2011
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Samsung has done what apple has failed to do, supply a powerful, flexible device. Apple so far produces mediocre power and inflexible devices.
This is not to say that Apple has a bad product, after all, women still wear skirts despite them being impractical. |
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amcmo
26 September 2011
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Haratu,
Don't know where you got that crap from.
In pretty well every full review so far the iPad has outperformed all comers. Lets see, Xoom - slow, heavy flop, Playbook impractical flop, HP, flop. So far Samsung iPad look-alike is the only potential competitor.
Inflexible? Our in house iPad user raves over his. It connects to our network, exchange server, has adapter for camera cards etc, prints to our network. The fact that Android is supposedly open source OSS not give it some magical powers. Oh wait, honeycomb isn't open source!
Similar applies to the iPhone. Works just fine as a phone and has higher customer loyalty than any other brand. Exceedingly practical as a phone from all I'm told and reviews.
As for your sexist comment about women wearing skirts. My wife prefers one in summer, much cooler - so much for impractical.
Next!
Edited by amcmo: 26/9/2011 09:00:12 PM |
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rubaiyat
27 September 2011
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Haratu wrote:Samsung has done what apple has failed to do, supply a powerful, flexible device. Apple so far produces mediocre power and inflexible devices.
This is not to say that Apple has a bad product, after all, women still wear skirts despite them being impractical.
Ahhh another generalised opinionated dismissal.
Here's mine. Why are so many Apple haters bogan boofheads scared of a bit of technology because it has been well designed?
I get a similar feeling walking through both Harvey Norman's furnishings and computer section: "Who buys this over-priced tosh?"
Then I look around and see people who think if the signs look cheap then it must be cheap. They are intimidated by quality. |
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photohounds
27 September 2011
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Ooh good one Ruby,:
Want a better smartphone? Must be a Bogan apple hater. Apple gear is good stuff, but not as they would have it, the only game in town.
Android phones work well and are made very well - $99 models excluded (perhaps). The ones I've played with work well as a phone too, no matter whether I hold use "non-sanctioned" grip to use them. They ARE flexible, well priced and quality items.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/358879/Android_King_of_the_Smartphones?source=CTWNLE_nlt_os_2011-09-26
You can follow the "Android beats iPhone 2-to-1 in new smartphone purchases" link from there and make all the excuses you like.
AM - This shows that a nice replacement market is growing for the "missing" Apple component sales.
I doubt there'll be executions at Samsung. Promotions more like.
People are voting with their money, but I suppose the people who simply PREFER Android are all idiots and "intimidated by quality".
I could see a another 20 million Galaxy S2's sold by year end. Just one model folks.
Ho ho ho. |
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amcmo
27 September 2011
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Photo,
I don't know what it is with Andoroid fans (and the unintelligent press)crowing about Android sales being greater than iPhone.
How many manufacturers and how many models covering cheap to full featured are there for Android?. The article you quote covers sales figures from the dumbest Android give away phone to full featured. Apple do not even address over 70-80% of that market. Of course, any idiot could guess that Android should outsell iPhone (1 manufacturer, 2 models). If it didn't it would be the greatest flop since the Edsell.
The accurate comparison would be Samsung and Apple, or RIM and Samsung or Apple, in the market segments where they overlap.
When you compare that way, there is a great fight on between Samsung and Apple with everyone else also-rans. I have never said people who buy Android phones are idiots, just people who are Android = Good, Apple = Evil one-eyed idiots.
Why would Samsung promote staff who have lead it into an expensive fight worldwide with product bans and the potential loss of their biggest customer all because of lazy UI design? No, executions with a little 'drawing and quartering' to get the message across should be the order of the day. Who's going to fill that $10Bn flash fab now?
People are indeed voting with their money, Apple making greater sales and profits every quarter, Samsung doing extremely well HTC ok, Motorola in danger of falling off the edge of your flat world, RIM headed for extinction.
Of course Moto stands to be resurgent when Google give them first access to new Android features and shafts its Android partners.
Edited by amcmo: 27/9/2011 09:08:04 AM |
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rubaiyat
27 September 2011
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If you read that article properly you will see Apple is not losing any sales, in fact it is steadily growing sales of iPhones all on its little lonesome.
Android is no single manufacturer, it is a dogs breakfast of companies, models and OSes with little in common.
Just like the people buying trashy products in Harvey Norman or JB Hi-Fi, or eating KFC, Maccers and Dominos there seems to be the large majority who will never try anything that looks "too good".
Even if they have to pay for the privilege of having second best. Maths or judging value are not their strong points. |
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j876
27 September 2011
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"Android = Good, Apple = Evil one-eyed idiots" amcmo
Hey amcmo it goes the other way too look at all those tools who sleep out in front of Apple shops every time there is a new release. Ridiculous.
"Android is no single manufacturer, it is a dogs breakfast of companies, models and OSes with little in common."
Not true. HTC, Samsung, LG and others all have different apps and widgets inbuilt but the Android OS underneath is still the same. I'd rather have a choice of vendors with different flavours rather than just Apple flavour.
And another thing rubaiyat don't trash people who don't follow the Apple cart and buy other phones like RIM, Andriod and Windows Phone and say they are less intelligent than Apple buyers. That is uncalled for. saying that iPhone are superior phones is just your opinion which you are free to express but don't say others are less intelligent (have weak maths and judging ability) just because they have bought tech without an Apple logo and you don't agree to it.
I know a lot of people who own iPhone's and iPad's who come to me to set them up for them and with "How do I.." questions because they have no clue how to use them yet they bought it anyway because their friends and collegues have them and they don't want to look out of place. If these Apple users have such high intellect how come they have to come to me to show them how to use it? Why can't they figure it out for themselves? Apple users are no more or no less inteligent than people who use other stuff.
It shows that iOS is not so intuitive as it makes out to be.
Edited by J876: 27/9/2011 12:45:44 PM |
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amcmo
27 September 2011
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Just an interesting piece of info out of the US. CISCO are now allowing staff to choose their own gear provided it meets their IT specifications.
46% chose Apple products in the last period.
We're talking intelligent, tech guys here, not fan boys or other |
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j876
27 September 2011
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amcmo wrote:Just an interesting piece of info out of the US. CISCO are now allowing staff to choose their own gear provided it meets their IT specifications.
46% chose Apple products in the last period.
We're talking intelligent, tech guys here, not fan boys or other
On the same token 54% didn't. So what? |
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amcmo
27 September 2011
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j876,
I have already posted several times that I think anyone who camps outside for a release of a new product is totally one-eyed.
Unfortunately Android is a 'dog's breakfast' in that a number of major app writers for the Android market have complained about having to write versions for different manufacturer's products.
This is becomming an even greater issue, with several manufacturers already forking Android for their own exclusive designs, and Amazon about to release it's own forked version. The number of apps that have to multiple versions written is going to be every increasing.
As for your claim of iPhone users who have to ge you to help them. It's amazing how many Android fanatics just happen to have iPhone user friends who can't use them / hate them etc... makes one wonder.
Chatting with our IT mgr, he has a Nokia, as do I, however he complains about the number of staff and friends with smartphones of every hue who come to him for advice.
I think you're jumping to the it must be the iPhone's problem too quickly. I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of smartphone users regardless of brand have not got a clue how to set them up and use them.
Just to check out your claims, I grabbed an HTC Wildfire and an iPhone 4 that staff members have here and did a quick check on ease of getting to settings etc (joys of being the boss). Truth is, I thought the iPhone might have been SLIGHTLY more intuitive, but not a great deal in it. What I did feel is that the HTC had a substantially cheaper feel to it.
Like CISCO, we allow staff to select their own equipment from approved products, so we have a mix of all brands. Samsung S II in the UK office which I've already said felt plastic, great screen, however I didn't give it a try out, so couldn't comment on it's ease of use, though per previous post, our outside accountant has one and wants to be rid of it. In this case I feel it is very much a case of user not knowing how to set up and use to full benefit.
As for Ipad users, if they have to come to you for help then they must be DUMB with a capital D.
I picked up our company one the day before an overseas trip and had it set up with our Exchange server and all my settings within 10 minutes, without having st hands on it before. I even had my Itunes library from my PC in whithout effort.
Edited by amcmo: 27/9/2011 12:59:09 PM |
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amcmo
27 September 2011
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54% one brand only, the rest, Dell, HP, you name it, spread over a multitude of platforms.
The figures speak for themselves, 54% (OVER HALF) of what can be expected to be an educated market chose one brand over all others available to it. Not one OS with dozens of brands - 1 brand, 1 OS. That's what!
If you can't (or blindly refuse to) grasp the significance of that j876 I don't hold out great hope that the iPhone and iPad users who come to setup help from you will get anything other than blind Apple hate/Android love crap. |
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photohounds
27 September 2011
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You meight be right, AM. CISCO might well have SMART employees - here's why:
Considering ipad has > 80% market share, less than 20% of the public buy apple.
So by your numbers, those clever tech folk at CICSO, buy NON-apple in 54% of cases.
Yes Mildred, they are 270% ++MORE LIKELY TO SHY AWAY FROM APPLE++ than the General Public is.
For more unsupportable hatred in this thread ... denigrating Android users who chose a value item that just works as being idiots?
What APPLOGRANCE from the APPLOGRANT
(new words - past-tense corruptions of "apple" and "arrogant")
Quite capable of reading the article I referred to thanks ...
Presumably people have enough intelligence to choose based on the quality for the money.
It does NOT make them "too stupid to choose apple" as implied above.
Sounds like the Win, Mac, OS/2 and Linux (and probably PS2 Xbox Nintendo) zealots all over again to me!
"Stupid" people may be quite happy that apple is good stuff that works well, but EVEN HAPPIER that there are VERY GOOD alternatives.
Rantings like the ones above tell us a lot about who is a "true believer", thinly disguising their hatred for freedom and competition.
What are you afraid of, that Apple will AGAIN snatch defeat from the jaws of victory if you don't insult those who like "choice" and you will be left with shiny bricks?
I doubt that will happen. Do you argue which is the "best" car? Must everyone drive one of those, too?
Monoculture just isn't healthy and I'd not want Google to be the only game in town, either.
I prefer companies to compete for out attentions - as they are now. Better products, cheaper prices.
You choose and use what you like and it matters not a jot if I choose something else.
I won't say you are a fool to choose apple, even if something better and much cheaper exists.
"Nothing is as firmly believed as that which we least know" ... Michel De Montaigne |
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amcmo
27 September 2011
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Photo, Quotes don't add anything to a fallacious argument.
54% CHOOSE Apple, not other. We're not talking iPads or iPhones here but Apple products inc notebooks etc, so your figures are meaningless.
The simple (read it SIMPLE) fact is that over half chose Apple over all other brands combined.
I've never said that people who select other than Apple are stupid, just that those who attribute superiority to Android because of it's SUPPOSED open source and not on any technical merit, and somehow attribute evil to Apple and only good to Android (remember it is Google who are potentially up for over $1Bn for STEALING code for Android) are even more one-eyed than the greatest Apple Fan Boys.
You continue to attempt to insult me with the label Apple Fan Boy, despite my phone being Nokia, my desktop at both the office and home office being in house builds with Win7, and my ONLY Apple item being the recently purchased MacBook Air purchased due to a total lack (so far) of any device with even similar Weight/Price/Performance/Ruggedness. An item I might add I am VERY happy with. I know I have some secret agenda in not using Apple product to cover for my abiding love of all things Apple:-"
Though I have the power as company owner to impose hardware on staff, I allow them to have full choice within approved technical specs. Hardly the actions of a secret, hidden agenda Apple Fanboy. I know, I have some machiavellian need to hide my true love for Apple.
The reason why I consistently refute your (and a few other Android Fanatics) posts is that they have alarming lack of factual backing and all appear to be based on irrational Apple Hate and Android Love.
If I did not, apart from one or two other admitted Apple fans, some parts of this forum would be nothing much more than an Android love-fest and Apple bashing self love society.
In your own words, there is a real need for alternatives.
Edited by amcmo: 27/9/2011 02:28:28 PM |
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photohounds
27 September 2011
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Interesting interpretatin of the 'NO vote', you're entitled to it.
JUST IN THIS THREAD...
Bias from apple proponents indcated by the pejoratives listed - here's a summary of apple protagonist's words to dissenters:
Bogan, "dog's breakfast", hater, flat world, trashy products, eating KFC, pay for the privilege of having second best (that means apple is always best, right?), judging value are not their strong points (of course apple lovers are the only ones who can "judge value", right?), blind Apple hate/Android love crap
The zealots revealed are. Glad you like the idea of healthy alternatives.
BTW Ruby, the local JBs can't be "all bad" they flog apple - and the sales guys are apple lovers to boot.
If I managed staff at JB, that's EXACTLY who I'd employ to flog apple product.
As for the maths dream earlier in the thread, seeking to suggest that Samsung will be on its knees because of no more iphone component making is fanciful in the extreme:
If Samsung can sell half of the units to replace the "iphone GUTS THEY will NO LONGER MAKE", they will be way ahead financially.
Simple: Greatly increased profit per unit/set ... they WILL make those sales. Their reputation as you ask around is good, guaranteeing a place on people's shortlists.
What happens when the new outsorcer jumps on the Android or WebOS or (ugh - bias revealed) Windows 8 bandwagon?
You see if it can run iOS it can run Android, and probably WebOS too.
Eventually a NON manufacturer runs out of people to make product and quality may suffer.
While apple is increasing units and keeping % market share, Samsung et. al. are EATING Nokia's and RIM's lunch.
The Android market share just keeps increasing and it cannot be because the products are rubbish.
There are various "explanations", the most likely is that most people know what they like and buy despite in not being supposedly cerebral to buy a cretain brand.
To do OTHERWISE would be "irrational brand love"
I LIKE Quotes from those more eloquent and intelligent than myself - especially if vaguely relevant - here's another one.
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held
is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd." |
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amcmo
27 September 2011
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photohounds wrote:Interesting interpretatin of the 'NO vote', you're entitled to it.
The 44% CISCO staff who brought other product did not vote NO to Apple, they voted yes to one of any number of alternatives, none of which on their own came close to the Apple Sales. Significant difference - Using your logic, 72% of phone buyers voted NO to Samsung phones. Must be a pile of crap for that many people to vote against them. See the error in your logic? With that poor a use of statistics, you're not in Federal politics by any chance?
photohounds wrote:Bogan, "dog's breakfast", hater, flat world, blind Apple hate/Android love crap
I'll address my comments. Dog's breakfast, fairly accurate asessment of a 'standard'that turns out not to be, with miriad variations that are not necessarily compatible with all Apps. Flat earth - term for someone who choses to ignore facts, which you regularly seem to do. Blind Apple Hate.... Even when your arguments are refuted with fact you insist that Apple is wrong/evil whatever.
photohounds wrote:As for the maths dream earlier in the thread, seeking to suggest that Samsung will be on its knees because of no more iphone component making is fanciful in the extreme:
Where did I suggest that? I made the simple statement based on business 101. You NEVER walk away from that much business and burn your best customer for ever. Samsung could have had great phone/tablet sales with their own design PLUS $7Bn and growing from Apple. No sane business person walks away from over $2Bn in profit from one customer. Using that logic, you wouldn't last a day in my company, nor that of any of my peers in business. Our most junior trainee displays more business accumen than that, but then we do demand basic levels of intelligence from all our applicants.
photohounds wrote:NON manufacturer:
That one has been discussed and refuted in so many prior threads, I'm surprised you still hang on to it. Apple used to manufacture, with world class facilities, however they found a more efficient and cost effective method and tuned it to perfection. Cook is the master of that.
photohounds wrote:"The fact that an opinion has been widely held
is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd." :
Fits your blind insistence on Anti-Apple rants regardless of thread topic to perfection. Thanks for supplying it (Again)
On your comment on growing Android market share, true, however if experience at local phone outlets is any guide, there's a great reasone and noting to do with Choice. Visit almost ANY SE Qld mobile phone shop and unless you specifically ask for an Iphone or Nokia you will be presented with an Android. They are the default sale item for staff (better commission?).
From my own experience and that of my office manager, even if you ask about the iPhone you will be told it's a 'locked system' Android is far superior, in fact at one Telstra shop you have to get quite rude to stop them trying to sell you an Android. Using simple extrapolation of this experience one could suggest that a good part of Android success is due to blind acceptance of salesperson's pitch and nothing to do with informed decision. Not suggesting all Android phones are rubbish (some are), however it's an interesting concept and one that would be a challenge to document and see for certain either way. Now that's an interesting Doctorate thesus challenge!
Edited by amcmo: 27/9/2011 04:25:02 PM |
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rubaiyat
27 September 2011
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j876
The dogs breakfast is exactly that, different interfaces to different versions, many not upgradeable.
Now that Amazon is entering the field looks like there will be an entirely new and possibly locked down fork.
I am equally critical of any shopper Apple fanboi or Apple hater who does not shop around and rules out a product purely on the brand. If somebody choses either Apple or Android I hope they have done it based on examining the actual products and if possible trying them.
This is more easily done with Apple's products than the competitors. I have frequently tried very hard to get my hands on working models of Android or other phones and tablets in stores. I have been variously shown empty boxes, gadgets not turned on or not working, or where the sales person hangs onto it and is very reluctant to let you play with it. I desperately want to compare working models but it ain't easy.
In contrast I am gobsmacked at the schmucks who pick models based on the display with stickers on the front simulating a working unit. Also by the number of people who boast they wouldn't try an Apple, like that's a sign of technical genius. All based on some nonsense spouted by their friends or reviewers. Yet they enthusiastically pick up overpriced second rate non-Apple models. The quality of their decision making and fiscal skills is demonstrated by them then paying too much. I have worked in advertising and can easily read the fake pricing signals the stores give out. Trashy black and yellow "hand lettered" sales signs seem to take in these simpletons.
I watch them go through cheap looking gadget after cheap looking gadget, impressed by lots of "features" most of which don't work or work badly or are built on bad hardware. This is the bucket of KFC I was referring to. People who buy on quantity and lists, ignoring what the reality is, and taking the packaging at face value. Exactly what the Apple haters accuse Apple fanbois of doing.
btw I also despair of Apple fanbois who walk into an Apple Store and just pay the RRP never asking for a deal or discount. They are equally as stupid. They also take staff assurances at face value without question. Just amazing!
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photohounds
27 September 2011
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Oh dear, Am.
Nowow it is a retailer conspiracy to sell away from iphones? Couldn't be the personal preference of a sales person. If you are right it might be that Apple is squeezing retailers more, but I don't know how that goes.
Ruby: there's as much PRO apple nonsense sprouted as anti apple nonsense. Buyers have their foibles whether they buy apple or abdroid. Some don't CARE, as all products will feel the needs of some less demanding customers. They want a good phone with a nice screen and some will never download an app.
Why should we care? it's their choice and loot.
One of the reasons I bought a galaxy, is that it is easier to see because the screen is probably the best in the business - unless you want 3D perhaps. That is a need as I hate fiddling with things that are hard to see.
I hate things that don't work well and apple stuff mostly works very well, but guess what the galaxy is easily the iphone's equal.
From my ownership of a 3 and playing with store and several friend's 4's, put the brand BS aside and there's not much to pick, really.
A few nicer trinkets, yes but the screen was the clincher. Sammy keeps the best screens for his own models.
Interesting to see what the screen on the i6 (from SHARP, I believe) will be like, but that's a way off yet and it gives Sammy a year a year to surpass it.
Competition's great and users couldn't care if there's a fork. The Amazon thinh has one killer feature. CONTENT that no one can match.
I believe this device could really set the cat among the pigeons. Admittedly it is taking longer than I once postulated. Mea Culpa!
Inexorable change drives this market segment after 18 months of one-brand stagnation that has done customers overall little good. |
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amcmo
27 September 2011
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Photo didn't suggest a retailer conspiracy, more an observation, that in many ways does explain part of the market percentages. Remember almost 50% of the market are pretty ordinary phones of various brands that don't come close to the iPhone or Glaxy and these are the first ones that were offered to me. The Galaxy was not available at the time and was dissed as being more hype in the rush for a slae of the rubbish they had then.
I would easily believe that Android margins are greater than Apple's. I could also see it as lazy. With all the Android buz words of open source etc, it's like they take the sales pitch straight from any Android fan Boy forum post.
As for 18 months of one brand stagnation, there were many other brands, just didn't come close in features. |
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rubaiyat
27 September 2011
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photohounds wrote:Oh dear, Am.
Nowow it is a retailer conspiracy to sell away from iphones? Couldn't be the personal preference of a sales person. If you are right it might be that Apple is squeezing retailers more, but I don't know how that goes.
You really don't know how it works?!
The sales staff are given "incentives" (bribes). Sell so many of a certain product in a month and you go in for a chance to get a trip to Fiji or some such.
That was one of the principle reasons Apple established its own Apple Stores or In-Store Stores manned by Apple staff. As the premier product Apple products were used to draw in customers. The customers were then told Apple is too expensive, or doesn't do something, or any old excuse, true or not.
At which point the customer is diverted onto the salesperson's "confidential tip", the Other Product which of course is a so much better buy for the customer! The customer is not told that the sales person doesn't give a toss, it is just the better sale for the salesperson.
Now that Apple's got a firm grip over that little scam, the stores have become driven by a new imperative, the customer ever since the iPod demands Apple products, and if the store hasn't got them the store actually loses the customers who'll walk to a store that does stock Apple. The shoe is on the other foot now. |
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amcmo
28 September 2011
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Well put Rubaiyat |
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photohounds
2 October 2011
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Perhaps I do "know how it works" from past experience as retailer, oh self-styled guru.
You have provided a very one-sided view of the not-always-easy business of retailing.
I am well aware of the practice of 'nailing it to the shelf' and 'selling-off'.
So ... these practices (or unintelligent buyers) are the only possible explanations why some people prefer products other than fruity ones?
No chance the salesperson actually has their own preferences, not merely driven by greed becasue they don't worship at the altar of the product you like?
It is a preference, nothing more, and when the new apple cart is uncovered Tuesday night, they will probably regain the crown momentarily
Being offered a Galaxy first, is to me, simply being offered the currently superior product.
Product leap-frog gives us better, cheaper products and Apple has a firm grip 'on it' no question ...
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amcmo
2 October 2011
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I agree with Rubaiyat, there are all sorts of incentives offered to salespeople to get the customer to buy a certain product.
In the financial services industry, they have to tell you up front, however in the phone market, they don't have to let you know that if they can sucker enough like you into the current incentive item, they might get a free trip to Fiji, Bali, wherever.
Apple are unlikey to regain the crown at any phone outlets as they don't offer 'incentives' from what I am advised.
Based on your earlier posts, I wandered into a Telstra shop in Brisbane yesterday ( not the one that already knows and dislikes me for arguing the point) and asked if they'd heard anything about the upcoming Apple kit. Question was not out of my mouth before the Apple bashing started, and boy was it BASHING! You'd have been proud of them.
The Galaxy certainly is a very good phone, however not overwhelmingly superior to the iPhone4 from what I can see. One could possibly walk out with either and be happy (if one were happy with the security issues on Android) Choice would be a fine thing, rather than getting one rammed down your throat.
Edited by amcmo: 2/10/2011 04:26:17 PM |
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photohounds
2 October 2011
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Apple may offer incentives still, but I cannot be sure, I doubt you are.
I don't 'bash' - other than anti-competitive behaviour and that is deserved by many companies. It annoys me when sales people do it unless they can clearly prove why item A is not a good buy, so yet again, you are wrong about me.
Something I don't like is people who knock any new product they do not own.
What are they SO AFRAID of??? There's room for everyone! (except in the minds of monopolists)
Apple fans are the most hateful I've seen for a while, some pretending to be impartial. Saying the other 'hates' when you do is a common tactic. It certainly is used here, presumably only to disguise their own bigotry.
You are right, either product is good if one were happy with the restrictive practices of the one as to what you can and cannot do, vs the supposed security issues - storm - teacup unless you d/l idiotic apps.
The sammy screens are that much nicer. Even apple-heads like the screen of galaxy 1, let alone galaxy 2. For me (and I'm sure I am not alone here) the quality of the screen is a major part of the phone experience.
(I'm waiting for the 5.5" screen unit, I'd rarely 'need' a tablet then).
While a tab 10.1 interests me as it very wide - best so far to read news articles etc. while standing next to a bench, I resist because wonder how much time it would simply spend idle.
Just in ...
I've had a sniff around 5 local retailers this week, mostly large-ish ones.
The apple products at all of them were turned on, clean and had prime shop space. They usually had someone who really likes apple (perfect sales staff for the job of moving lots of fruity boxes out the door).
The others products were mostly (as you say) NOT even working. The displays are awful, cramped and nowhere as neat as the apple displays were. The stock was also grubby. It was apparent that few sales people had been to a product night with its attendant training and brainwashing for the non-apple brands as they knew little compared to the Apple people (who tell me they DO go to love/training fests).
I KNOW that Apple have offered 'spiffs' (bribes as you call them) in Australia in the past, and see no reason they would not periodically continue the practice. All companies seem to do it not just the "anti-apple" companies as you suggest.
The facts, based on experience not religious belief, debunks the above conspiracy theories above, at least in my neck of the woods.
In fact, they indicate precisely the reverse of what is alleged that shops don't want to sell the stuff.
I bought two ipods in a year (one to replace a stolen unit. I asked both times if there were good alternatives and was steered ONTO apple product - which work fine
Pity the shop people don't like you.
Edited by photohounds: 2/10/2011 07:20:44 PM |
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rubaiyat
2 October 2011
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Yet again photo you have the wrong end of the stick.
Apple does not bribe the sales staff, in fact they seem to be making the job hard for them by offering them virtually no margin to play with. They didn't before when I was a VAR and I can see no evidence they do now.
Yes they do have their own paid staff on many sites and the store staff do get training from Apple. How is that wrong? How is that brain washing?
Apple actually designs and installs its own in-Store displays which are head and shoulders above the tatty efforts of its competitors.
Apple has strict guidelines which they enforce. If the stores do not maintain the displays and goods to Apple's satisfaction they lose the right to sell Apple's products. Which is what you would want and expect of them. The curious attitude of PC shops and shoppers was demonstrated to me by a phone shop manager when I observed that just about nothing was working in her shop, 'unlike in the Apple Store' and she scoffed at Apple's 'unreasonable' rules, which they were obviously unable to meet.
How you got it into your strange little head that that must mean that Apple is bribing staff I don't know. |
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amcmo
3 October 2011
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Photo, you're off on a tangent again....
We buy from 2 of the larger Apple distributors, though we can't buy Apple product as we've never wanted to become an Apple reseller. We do, however see the margins and promo's that are listed for approved resellers.
The margins are slim and the promo's consist of a slightly improved margin to clear out old stock as each new model is released.
I was talking about phone shops and the attitude there which is decidedly Apple unfriendly.
It's not a case of the shops 'don't like me', more a case of they HATE anyone who disputes their pro-Android, anti Apple approach and calls them on innacuracies.
Of course you are going to find working Apple product in the larger stores you mention - a completely different market.
To be allowed to sell Apple computers/tablets, you must have working product and staff qualified to demo them, and many have an Apple staff member there to ensure that staff are up to date and customers are provided with the information necessary to make a buying decision. Apple seem to insist that the displays are consistent and that product is kept clean and available to anyone to just have a play. Nothing like hands on to clinch the deal.
Next time you go back, watch how much easier it is for the staff to demo the Apple vs the PC product. That has struck me in every shop I've gone into, regardless of the other brands on display.
I guess the reason is that selling an Apple is a sale as opposed to pointing to this week's super discount PC or notebook that looks just the same as the next brand, is usually one generation old and targeted at those who just want a PC and want to pay as little as possible. Stat asking questions and it becomes apparent that anyone with the ability to do a simple Windows install knows more than the average salesperson.
To get back to the phones, your average phone store is a smallish space in a shopping centre with lots of dummy units on display, no demo available as such. The whole approach has to be shift the box with a little effort as possible. The current Android = open source, therefore some incredible benefit 'canned' spiel that they all have down pat is designed for just that - shift the box.
You dismiss the security issues in Android. You don't have to be a downloader of idiotic apps to be caught - that's already been shown, and what was the stat for the last one? - 475k devices infected?. I'd call that more than a storm in a teacup.
As for the screens on the machines. Yes the Galaxy screen is pretty, though the hi res iPhone4 screen is also great. On a side by side there's not a hell of a lot in it. Slightly brighter colours on Galaxy, sharper pic on iPhone. Certainly not the overwhelming superiority you claim.
If you want a 5" screen phone, more power to you.
Personally I want one that fits in an average pocket, and is easy to handle. Didn't Dell have a 5" unit that was blasted?. 'It's not the size, it's what you do with it'
I notice a couple of US reviews comparing 5" tablets to the iPod Touch rather than the iPad. Apart from the screen size, similar functionality...mmm
As for suggesting that Apple supporters are 'haters' read back through any of the posts, I'd say there is more anti Apple 'hate' than the other way round.
And 'disguising my own bigotry', I've just spent the weekend assembling and optimising another Win7 PC for video production. If I was the Apple bigot you paint me to be, wouldn't I have been unboxing an Apple?
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photohounds
3 October 2011
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Nothing wrong with training staff and insisting on neat displays. More power to the Big A. You don't have to buy what I have and vice versa. It makes neither of us 'right' or 'wrong'. I spend relatively little time rubbishing the products themselves, but the model strikes me as monopolistic. I'm glad the underdog (in this case Google) is there to keep 'em honest even if they are not perfectly behaved thenselves.
Brainwashed? By the OSS 'little story'? OSS is (mostly) a good thing - many eyes over the source. The internet runs on it, most little gadgets run on it, your home router and set top box run on it. So most likely will your phone, whatever you buy, as most successful ones run on *nix adaptations.
Even Apple dresses a FREE BSD derivative up with a nice GUI, shame the end result is closed.
Linux (and similar OSS *nix derivatives) The OS that is at once nowhere and everywhere. OSS speed of bug fixing embarrassingly TROUNCES those closed source purveyors.
Instead of squashing bugs (ALL software has then) they spend most of the time stating there's no problem as we have been witnessing for some decades.
There must be more to this supposed pro Android 'bias' than spiffs and free trips to be won, mate, Too convenient an allegation and requires no statistically significantly sized sample. Overall, I have seen none of your described bias without employing selective memory filtering.
IME about half salespeople say Apple's great and the other half say Android's great, I do not call that bias - beyond a personal and sometimes strong preference - on both sides of the 'great divide'.
And if I should go somewhere else? I haven't tried this (limited spare time) but perhaps the north side of my home town are biased one way and south the other?
This happens often enough even in the same city, it doesn't prove conspiracy.
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photohounds
3 October 2011
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Oops - mea culpa
Edited by photohounds: 3/10/2011 06:17:41 PM |
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amcmo
3 October 2011
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When one visits something like 20 phone stores over a 6 month period and the story is suprisingly the same (could be the same script), you're starting to get statistical relevence. No memory filtering involved. I'm not alone in this, with several staff commenting on same.
As for Bugs, there is NOTHING to suggest that OSS is any faster or better at addressing them than closed source. Apple and M$ are generally not too bad at putting out the fixes. Check out another post on the latest 'bugs' in HTC phones. You also seem to suggest that Android, being OSS has all these people out there checking for issues. WRONG, apart from it only being partially OSS (Honeycomb is not) Google controls all but the 'skin'. Google and it's partners have been slack with code and addressing issues on occasion. Certainly no superior to anyone else.
As for your example of embedded OSS in devices, it requires far less code and even then they also have bugs. The big thing there is the developers don't have to pay licence fees (unless they breach patents). Nothing about it's superiority, all about less cost (to the developer, not necessarily the end user)
Where do you get that a $multi Billion Google is an underdog, with their supposedly open source software having around half the worldwide maket? To be even handed, at present you'd have to split underdog status between RIM, Nokia and M$
I'm not dissing Google phones in general (apart from the REAL security issues), nor tablets, apart from the supportable statement that in tablets, they have yet to make an iPad2 equiv for general consumption. There are some nice looking Android phones, and I'm still tossing up the Galaxy SII. Sure as hell won't be an HTC after todays read.
What I am consistantly arguing against is that Apple is evil, controlling, etc and that Android/OSS is somehow superior. A statement that cannot be supported by fact.
btw, you double posted:d
Edited by amcmo: 3/10/2011 05:58:03 PM |
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photohounds
3 October 2011
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Wall St and the LSE went to OSS because OSS PROVED to be faster at processing millions of transactions per day. Yes that's right, it gave them an EDGE. More are following, if not all.
Many have come to the same conclusion about phones - must be some conspiracy?
No, even if they do worship at the Android church.
Apple has its own church, so it's tit for tat. I worship at neither.
Android WAS very much the underdog 18 months ago and that's what the incumbents can't stand - it's spectacular success came from quality products, well priced, not some evil doings as the haters allege.
I think you should stick to Apple stuff from now on, why even bother thinking about it? It will usually work and you won't have to waste time with anything else.
I owned a ip3 and my partner has an ip4, she very much doubts she will 'go the 5', unless it is much better than the equivalent Sammy (she's into biz, not gimmicks). She thinks mine trounces hers and can easily see that the screens are quite different.
Evil? - your words again ...
Don't use much OSS, or never had a problem with it?
Either way, some of your experience is merely hearsay and that I can't be bothered with. I HAVE had OSS problems, and when there's a genuine bug, (and you're not a raving idiot), then someone on the development team takes the time to assist - from experience.
Enjoy the 'fruits' of your labours :-)
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amcmo
4 October 2011
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The fact that it was faster had nothing to do with it being OSS. It was the code implementation that had been chosen. I could give you enough examples of sloppy OSS code if you want to get into a "my dicks bigger than yours" type argument.
I have written code in many languages and O/S's over the years. Whle I'm not the Linux fan that a certain staff member is, I have worked with 4 Linux distro's, and Unix. I repeat yet again, I'm not for Apple, MS or any other, just against the fanboy Android/OSS that attributes qualities beyond reality and slavishly follow worse than any Apple fanboy I've ever met. Most of my experience is just that - experience, worldwide. I've run retail outlets, manufacturing plants, distribution centers significant companies, using many platforms, including OSS, so I can tell you you'r attributing superiority where it does not necessarily exist. and yes, I've seen the OSS community take a problem and stuff it up royally before getting it right!
Show me where anyone has shown any superiority of OSS over other's in phones.
As for the claim that Samsung screen is better, eye of the beholder. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. I repeat, don't see a significant superiority either way. They both have their strengths.
As for Androids success came from quality products BS. The first of them were decidedly 'iffy' but cheap. The code was ok, nothing more. Their success was based partly on taking to market some of the aspects of smartphones at give away prices. It is only in the past 12 months that seriously good contenders have emerged. Given the feedback from HTC users, that company is not the yet.
As a final comment, thank you for your permission (instruction?) to just go with Apple in future, however excuse me if I choose to evaluate critically before making my own decision!
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rubaiyat
4 October 2011
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amcmo
It seems to be beyond rational with photo.
Interestingly I came across something real odd in the cnet forum. There is a prolific poster there called shellcodes_coder. For forever his diatribe was always studded with crApple and iCrap etc at almost every second word. He has had an enormous list of what was wrong with Apple, OSX, iPhones, iPads Macs, Apple software, the App store et al, in a non-stop stream of hate. He never could say anything without name calling and Apple always had some evil motive behind the blandest announcement.
I did a double take because I suddenly realised that he was now doing exactly the opposite. Now it was Windows that was crap and Steve Balmer the idiot etc. At first I thought somebody had hijacked his avatar, but the writing style was familiar. Somebody else picked up on the 180° about face as well. So I scanned through his thousands of posts and discovered the change happened in January this year.
We asked what happened, had he fallen on his head perhaps?
Apparently he bought a Macbook at the beginning of the year. He had never ever used a Mac before! Like many self appointed "power user" PC experts, he had spouted endless "knowledge" for years culled from other PC fanbois and PC magazines and websites. Repeating them endlessly because they must be true, because everyone said so!
So a word of warning to all the Apple haters. Don't ever get a Mac and seriously start using it. Your virginity is such a precious thing to just be giving it away to that flash Mac with his smart shiny software and smooth talking ways.
He'll never respect you the way that the fat, desperate Windows from the office will!
Edited by rubaiyat: 4/10/2011 09:53:19 AM |
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amcmo
4 October 2011
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Hey Rubaiyat, agree totally on Photo.
As I've already posted, I got my first Apple, a 13" Air, in recent weeks. Not by specific choice, rather there just wasn't any Win ultrabook on the market at the time, and I wanted extra portability with decent computing power.
I have to confess SHE has seduced me royally.
It's a bit of a mindset switch going on to either of my two Win7 machines at the Office and home office.
Not ready to turn into an Apple only fan, either in computers or phones, however the sexy style of the Air and the way it just works and almost instant on, as opposed to the sluggish Win7 boot, even with a 6GBS SSD as the boot drive, is almost compelling if that experience is carried over to other Apple product.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Apple Announcement tomorrow, then a run-off between whatever's announced and a Galaxy II S to replace the Nokia.
Have to make the decision soon before the Apple seduction effect turns me into a rabid fanboy incapable of rational decision, which certain Android fanboy seems to believe has/will happen.:lol:
Edited by amcmo: 4/10/2011 10:22:07 AM |
