32 Reasons why PCs are Better than Macs

32 Reasons why PCs are Better than Macs

Apple’s ads may be funny, but they’re woefully inaccurate. Here we reveal dozens of reasons why the PC outclasses the Mac.

In the interests of balance, we asked Nik Rawlinson, editor of MacUser, to leap to Apple’s defence.

1 - Cheaper in the long run
The oldest Macs that can run Apple’s latest operating system have just celebrated their eighth birthday, yet all but a handful of the oldest Vista-ready PCs were still just kit and components this time last year. Macs are often criticised for being overpriced, but when you spread the cost over their respective working lives, the Mac comes out cheaper than a PC.

2 - Greater stability
Macs do crash, and anyone who tells you they don’t is a liar, but the tightly controlled Unix-based operating system is far more capable when it comes to isolating and terminating problematic applications than Windows. PCs come from the baby-and-bathwater school of conflict management and throw out the whole lot – data, app and OS – in exchange for a garish blue screen and a forced reboot.

3 - Mac Office is better
The very first version of Office was out a year before the PC, and it continues to innovate under Mac OS X, with many features appearing on Apple hardware first. Plus, the operating system’s built-in support for creating PDFs means Mac users have been rolling out their spreadsheets as Acrobat files for more than half a decade, while Windows workers have only just been granted that feature with Office 2007 (and even then, it’s an optional download).

4 - More secure
For one thing the operating system is built on a Unix core, with all the restricted and tiered permissions management that affords. For another, the fact it has a smaller user base than Windows counts in its favour, since for the last 20 years hackers and script kiddies have largely left it alone. Long may that continue.

5 - Triple booting
There are Mac-specific builds of several Linux distributions, but the real feather in the Mac’s cap is the fact you can run Windows, Linux and Mac OS X simultaneously, using virtualisation (see p34 for our guide to running Windows on a Mac). This is a world away from the lame emulation afforded PC users by Virtual PC, and it gives alternative operating systems direct access to the Apple hardware. So, while Windows can barely run three native applications at once, with a Mac you can run The GIMP under Red Hat, Keynote under OS X and Access under Windows on the same screen, at the same time.

6 - One company controls everything
The hardware and the operating system (and often the software too) are all made by a single company – Apple – and so they’re guaranteed to work well together. The OS is optimised for the computer line-up, the mouse and hardware are designed with the OS in mind, and the applications are tuned to take advantage of every tweak and innovation in both. Only a Mac can deliver a smooth, well-thought-out experience end-to-end, and only with a Mac do you know exactly where to go for help and support. With a PC you’ll be batted back and forth between Microsoft and whoever made your ugly beige box, as they spend the next month blaming each other for your problem.

7 - Macs are faster
PC Authority’s own Labs tests proved that the Mac Pro, the current top-end machine in Apple’s line up, was faster running Windows XP than any conventional PC at that time.

8 - Lively developer community
Use a Mac and you have access to the fruits of an incredibly vibrant developer community. The same is true of the PC, of course, but the PC shareware, freeware and donationware market is riddled with ugly, poorly designed, unconventional applications. Mac OS X has so many hooks and resources hidden under the surface that it’s one of the quickest platforms on which to develop, and as finished applications draw on Apple resources rather than being designed from scratch, they look as good as any other Mac app.

9 - Mods don’t rule
Nobody ever thought a Mac would look better with neon lighting and a glowing water cooling system. What does that say about Apple’s eye for design?

10 - Goodies use Macs, Baddies use PCs
Studies have shown that Hollywood has a tendency to make its baddies use PCs, and its heroes use Macs. Fact. That’s why Jack Bauer and his CTU colleagues on 24 solve major terrorist threats using machines built for OS X. And when Jeff Goldblum wanted to infect the Independence Day mothership with a virus to save the world from destruction, what did he use? A PowerBook 5300. Except, of course, you won’t find a virus on a Mac.

What does your PC or Mac look like? Show off your photos here.

 

 

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This Feature appeared in the October 2007 issue of PC & Tech Authority Magazine

Source: Copyright © PC Pro, Dennis Publishing

See more about:  32  |  reasons  |  pcs  |  macs
 
 

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Comments: 318
linuxonmac
5 April 2008
32 reasons for those who don't know better. I don't know about adds but I use both, PC and Mac and comparing them is just not fair - PC is soooo inferior. The only advantage PC has over Mac is number of programs available for it.
About G5 being inferior to Intel for years - how did you test it? And what about Cell chip from IBM? Intel will get there in 4-5 years. Maybe.
It would be interesting if author of this article try to spec PC similar to the biggest 24" iMac (including monitor). And by the way - how many monitors (any size) can compare in quality to iMac? Not many. I doubt he would be able to beat the price. Let's forget about look as that would be too much to ask from gray box manufacturers.
Oh yes I said I use PC as well - XP is fired up from time to time but Linux Mint is main resident on that machine. 3D desktop included and multiple workspaces of course - Windows will get there in next decade hopefully.


Comment made about the PC Authority article:
32 Reasons why PCs are Better than Macs?
Apple’s ads may be funny, but they’re woefully inaccurate. Here we reveal dozens of reasons why the PC outclasses the Mac.

What do you think? Join the discussion.
blockcentre
5 April 2008
Sounds about right to me ;)
kevin_watters
19 May 2008
LOL !!! Quote "12 - Microsoft’s on your team" endquote

Thats like saying you are affiliated with the Gambino crime family when the feds come knocking on your door...

PCs WERE better than Macs... until Vista came along :)

I've gone to Mac and will NEVER go back... they just WORK ! No viruses, no spyware... no BS from Microsoft.
totoaus
16 July 2008
I have always said that my first computer would have to be a PC, but the second would be a Mac. This was always a career necessity, but I'd still love to have the guts to toss the PC and work solely with Macs.
My first job was in a Computerland store with both machines and many others. The best argument I saw for a Mac was a salesman with no prior computer expereince: he struggled to do anything on a PC, but give him an early Mac with MacWrite and he could turn out amazing documents.
Logic, rationality and reason can take you places, but the emotional responses that Macs cause are like your first love, and no attempt at reason can beat that level of passion.
Far more PC users love to hate their machines, Mac users LOVE their machines
Slatts
16 July 2008
kevin_watters wrote:
LOL !!! Quote "12 - Microsoft’s on your team" endquote

Thats like saying you are affiliated with the Gambino crime family when the feds come knocking on your door...

PCs WERE better than Macs... until Vista came along :)

I've gone to Mac and will NEVER go back... they just WORK ! No viruses, no spyware... no BS from Microsoft.


Over priced
no games..
Limited software
no interest

linuxonmac wrote:
And what about Cell chip from IBM? Intel will get there in 4-5 years. Maybe.



If the Cell CPU is so great why did Apple go to Intel?


Edited by Slatts: 16/7/2008 10:15:19 PM
vjay
15 August 2008
The biggest turn off with Macs are the users who are members of the Apple cult brandishing the "Macs don't catch viruses" claims along with everything else they gloat about. Lets face it, when a majority of computer users are using a Windows base who do you think a virus/trojan writer is going to target?
Wait and see, the more people take up with a Mac... the more attractive a target they will be. It's just a matter of time and there are already instances of trojans being written for the Mac platform so that argument that a Mac is secure doesn't exactly ring true anymore.
OZSlayer
16 August 2008
Macs are designed to appeal to the yuppies and girls (they usually drive a Smart car eg my bro the Mac fan) who are more concerned about how it looks and not how it performs. Mac can be fast but are very limited as to what software you can use and how they can be upgraded.

Intel purchased Apple, if they hadn't this conversation would be void as they would be bankrupt by now.

The print industry was really the only sector that show any interest in Mac's

Yes Mac owners are a breed apart from PC users and can never be told diff.

Yes I have used both but I prefer PC by a mile due to the huge array of features and software, Ok you can emulate windows on a Mac but that makes it slow, so why bother.

Slatts
16 August 2008
Ha Ha Apple tarts Ha Ha=p~
bishopdante
18 August 2008
OMFG what a load of noobed out riducule. Umm yeah there's valid points when comparing the platforms, but these are a joke.

The apple architecture switch from PPC to X86 was a commendable work of engineering! That's supposed to be impossible. Try running Vista on your XBox 360. Aaah. Big endian little endian. AltiVec or SSE? Oh they really aren't the same at all. Apple's platform switch is totally unprecedented. The type of move that kills platforms. But now apple's laptops are the best in the business. How on earth did they make that work?!

Actually, the apple environment has some quite fascinating plus points, and its approach is quite distinct from the windows environment. It's all about the core services, it's all about the cloud, and it's all about the iphone (jailbroken of course). OSX is NOTHING like the old classic OS. It's actually NeXT, which is totally different, and really cool if you are a developer. You can write python, ruby, whatever you want, and it'll run. mix 'em up in the project. UNIX.

Where it comes to Vista, it's all about DirectX10, O'C modding, the warez scene, lower costs, aggressive hardware development. But I have to say that Vista has not been so good to me. Not a work OS, still requires constant maintenance and hand holding, and that's as a media center.

My work machine is OSX running VMware for those windows apps. It's fine, really. I mean, I wouldn't run Maya in that, but it's plenty fast.
bishopdante
18 August 2008
broadband just works??! Who on earth uses a USB modem?

Are we talking 3rd party hardware drivers? I mean, I've seen windows being advertised as supported on the software box, but often in reality it's a bit different.

It's a moot point though, most hardware doesn't need drivers these days, and that's modems included.

Now there's one BIGGIE. Syncing phones, you can forget about having those apps for OSX.
timinator
23 August 2008
I don't know why everyone hates Apple so much

12 months ago, I would have said 'long live the Windows PC- death to Mac OS X'. But since then, Apple have come a long way. With the release of Leopard (Mac OS X 10.5), Support for both Windows XP and Vista is now built in. All you need are the Leopard disks and a Windows licence key, and you can have Mac OS X and Windows running smoothly on Mac hardware. All these arguments about why Windows is better than Mac become null and void when you can have both Windows and OS X running natively on your Mac.

If someone asks me which OS I prefer- I still say Windows. But I also think that it is much better to have Windows running on the Mac than having Windows on a normal PC.
Slatts
24 August 2008
I think this says it all really
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-JdC04vBik[/youtube]
Jim.Dude
24 August 2008
Slatts wrote:
I think this says it all really
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-JdC04vBik[/youtube]


I'll play devil's advocate, since everyone seems to hate Apple... :p

Movie maker isn't exactly free. Sure, you can download it for free from Microsoft or through automatic update, but you have to validate your copy of XP at some stage, meaning you had to pay for windows anyway. Let's face it, they've probably bundled the costs in there...

Moreover, while it's true that movie maker does most things that iMovie does, iLife is more than just iMovie! You get iDvd, iPhoto, iWeb and Garageband...

iDVD and iPhoto aren't exactly revolutionary and in all fairness Apple's own iTunes can play DVD's and show photos...so it's a tough call on their value...although Media Player 11 can't play a DVD anyways, so it's really still APPLE > MS

The direct competitor of iWeb in MS would be FrontPage, which isn't free and has to be bought with Office also (ack, more costs)...and there is NO offering compared to Garangeband.

(For those of you who haven't used it, Garageband is an incredible program that allows you to choose from thousands of prerecorded instruments and beats and things to make and edit your own music.)

Movie maker is as good as iMovie, but MS has nothing 'free' on the rest and since iLife costs only $79, it really is a bargain...

And yes, I'm sure there's some dodgy knock-off open source thing that can do 85% of the things that iLife can for a fraction of the price...but, that means multiple installs, muptiple copes of things and just extra effort. For a sum of less than $100, I like the idea of it all coming on one CD.

Edited by Jim.Dude: 24/8/2008 02:05:39 PM
vjay
25 August 2008
Jim.Dude wrote:
I'll play devil's advocate, since everyone seems to hate Apple... :p

Movie maker isn't exactly free. Sure, you can download it for free from Microsoft or through automatic update, but you have to validate your copy of XP at some stage, meaning you had to pay for windows anyway. Let's face it, they've probably bundled the costs in there...

Moreover, while it's true that movie maker does most things that iMovie does, iLife is more than just iMovie! You get iDvd, iPhoto, iWeb and Garageband...

iDVD and iPhoto aren't exactly revolutionary and in all fairness Apple's own iTunes can play DVD's and show photos...so it's a tough call on their value...although Media Player 11 can't play a DVD anyways, so it's really still APPLE > MS

The direct competitor of iWeb in MS would be FrontPage, which isn't free and has to be bought with Office also (ack, more costs)...and there is NO offering compared to Garangeband.

(For those of you who haven't used it, Garageband is an incredible program that allows you to choose from thousands of prerecorded instruments and beats and things to make and edit your own music.)

Movie maker is as good as iMovie, but MS has nothing 'free' on the rest and since iLife costs only $79, it really is a bargain...

And yes, I'm sure there's some dodgy knock-off open source thing that can do 85% of the things that iLife can for a fraction of the price...but, that means multiple installs, muptiple copes of things and just extra effort. For a sum of less than $100, I like the idea of it all coming on one CD.

Edited by Jim.Dude: 24/8/2008 02:05:39 PM


I don't even know anyone who uses the movie maker thing in Windows to be honest. Or any of the other weird crap that comes bundled with systems. I didn't know DVD's didn't play in WMP 11? That's the first time I've ever heard about it since they work fine here. Then again I also run Quicktime, Real Player, divx/xvid and any other crummy video or music format through Windows Media Player 11 anyway because I really really have a dislike of having to install multiple players just in case I happen across content from them and this is done by installing the K-Lite codec pack.
The only other thing you mentioned useful in your collection of items to me at any rate was the iWeb application and if it's anything like FrontPage I'd also avoid it because I don't like FrontPage
I'm a Dreamweaver fan girl. :D
Jim.Dude
26 August 2008
vjay wrote:

I don't even know anyone who uses the movie maker thing in Windows to be honest. Or any of the other weird crap that comes bundled with systems. I didn't know DVD's didn't play in WMP 11? That's the first time I've ever heard about it since they work fine here. Then again I also run Quicktime, Real Player, divx/xvid and any other crummy video or music format through Windows Media Player 11 anyway because I really really have a dislike of having to install multiple players just in case I happen across content from them and this is done by installing the K-Lite codec pack.
The only other thing you mentioned useful in your collection of items to me at any rate was the iWeb application and if it's anything like FrontPage I'd also avoid it because I don't like FrontPage
I'm a Dreamweaver fan girl. :D



I've used movie maker a couple of times for assignments, but I don't make movies so I've no idea of what the alterantives are. DVD's certainly don't play on my laptop through WMP 11. The K-lite pack thing sounds fun, but that's the whole point of iLife. It comes with QuickTime/iDVD and iTunes is always pre-installed in the O/S so you don't need to install additional stuff.

Can't say I've used iWeb myself (or dreamweaver), but I know iWeb works out to be like $25 or something, how much is dreamweaver? Lastly, if you haven't had a chance to play with GarageBand, you're really missing out...it's an awesome program and it's terrible that so few alternatives exist that offer the same bang for buck.
nambypamby
26 August 2008
is it fair to compare apples and oranges?
Jim.Dude
27 August 2008
nambypamby wrote:
is it fair to compare apples and oranges?


Huh?
genesishep
24 October 2008
Ok, I just stopped writing this reply when I realized this article was from 2007. I think the world has seen and learned much this is article is not accurate by now. I guess you can disregard my statements below.

Wow...ok...this article is inaccurate in so many ways. Both platforms have their pluses, why not point out the right ones and leave the lies and FUD out of it.

#1. Apple does not charge for version updates either. release service packs. They do charge when they release complete new OS versions. This confuses your typical PC users because Apple has kept the OS X version numbers. For Marketing and "coolness" factors Apple is trying to stay with the "10" numbering scheme as long as possible. 10.1-10.5 are COMPLETELY different operating systems not just service packs. Comparing 10.1 to 10.5 is like comparing Win2k to Vista.

#3. Thankfully on a Mac you can run everything. Don't have the program available on the Mac platform? OK, install Windows or Linux and simply boot whatever your heart desires. In my book that gives the Mac more potential software titles than any PC out there.

#4. Come on guys, this is no longer an issue. Every Mac has shipped with a Mighty Mouse since 2005. I realize that it may "LOOK" like a 1 button mouse but its actually a 4 button mouse. It simply has a solid cover. I would expect a staff writer from a well known computer site to have at least this sort of basic knowledge. This is rather shocking to me and honestly makes the author come across as inept.

#8. This is just silly, almost every tech gadget you buy is yesterdays technology before you get it home. New stuff comes out all the time, so what if you have revision A instead of C. This happens with every product sold.

#9 Windows search better than OS X Spotlight? Are you on drugs? Wrong, period...do some actual testing before you say such things. Spotlight is INSTANT..and it blows Windows Search away. Window resizing from the sides? This is a fundamental difference between Mac and PC interface design. Its not a boon for either camp. Manipulating files in OS X is a breeze and it has built in folder options as well as automation tools that a basic user can configure, auto updates, auto copies, hell automate anything.



PCLemmings
24 October 2008
Wow. Obviously written by someone who doesn't have a clue about Macs (a pretend journalist) and is just looking to spike traffic to his site with another PC vrs Mac flame war.

But, these are fun so I'll jump into the fray:

1-"Service Packs", spoken like a true PC peasant. Mac's have OS advances (y'know, the stuff Microsoft so desperately try to steal) that change the OS dramaticaly - except they work pretty well (unlike Vista). System updates are free downloads.

2 - Price for Premium blah blah blah. You're right there. Let the riff-raff buy cheap to their hearts content - they are still using Windows. Oh wait, you guys can steal and hack OSX can't you. Which makes PC culture the perfect match for idols Microsoft - criminal.

3 - Games. Like that's a good thing? I guess the Mullet-haired crowd really need their FPS fix to get whatever passes for thought processes...

4 - 1 button mouse. Seriously, how dense can you be?? All of these years, and PC users still haven't figured out the insult you guys? Here's a clue: Apple has been telling PC users to piss-off. They brought the mouse to market, and if you don't like it, buy your own damn 2 button mouse. (tweak the driver? WTF???)

5 - Broadband hardly works on Macs. You totally made that up in a desperate attempt to make a list.

6 - Custom made systems = sad geeks with no life.

7 - Macs are months behind. Right. That's why MS and every PC maker try to blatantly rip off Apple the minute it realeases something.

8 - Life beyond 1rst... sorry that was so dumb it would be silly to comment on.

9 - Superior search facilities. But you talk about the windowing system (???) ...um, Mac's search blows windows out of the water. You should try it sometime.

10 - Safety in numbers. Wow, talk about Lemmings...

11 - Sensible support costs. Right, because for PC users, constant support to keep their machines running is a fact of life.

12 - Microsoft is on your team. Now who's drinking the cool-aid??
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
24 October 2008
PCLemmings wrote:
Wow. Obviously written by someone who doesn't have a clue about Macs

And you're argument sounds like it's written by someone who doesn't have a clue about PCs. :)

Geeks with no lives? Wow. I guess I better go hang myself then. Stereotyping is bad, mkay?
Slatts
24 October 2008
PCLemmings wrote:
Wow. Obviously written by someone who doesn't have a clue about Macs (a pretend journalist) and is just looking to spike traffic to his site with another PC vrs Mac flame war.

But, these are fun so I'll jump into the fray:

1-"Service Packs", spoken like a true PC peasant. Mac's have OS advances (y'know, the stuff Microsoft so desperately try to steal) that change the OS dramaticaly - except they work pretty well (unlike Vista). System updates are free downloads.

2 - Price for Premium blah blah blah. You're right there. Let the riff-raff buy cheap to their hearts content - they are still using Windows. Oh wait, you guys can steal and hack OSX can't you. Which makes PC culture the perfect match for idols Microsoft - criminal.

3 - Games. Like that's a good thing? I guess the Mullet-haired crowd really need their FPS fix to get whatever passes for thought processes...

4 - 1 button mouse. Seriously, how dense can you be?? All of these years, and PC users still haven't figured out the insult you guys? Here's a clue: Apple has been telling PC users to piss-off. They brought the mouse to market, and if you don't like it, buy your own damn 2 button mouse. (tweak the driver? WTF???)

5 - Broadband hardly works on Macs. You totally made that up in a desperate attempt to make a list.

6 - Custom made systems = sad geeks with no life.

7 - Macs are months behind. Right. That's why MS and every PC maker try to blatantly rip off Apple the minute it realeases something.

8 - Life beyond 1rst... sorry that was so dumb it would be silly to comment on.

9 - Superior search facilities. But you talk about the windowing system (???) ...um, Mac's search blows windows out of the water. You should try it sometime.

10 - Safety in numbers. Wow, talk about Lemmings...

11 - Sensible support costs. Right, because for PC users, constant support to keep their machines running is a fact of life.

12 - Microsoft is on your team. Now who's drinking the cool-aid??


I feel your pain lem.
Have you considered seeing someone?
Anger management classes might help?:)
mathue
30 October 2008
5 - Broadband just works

What sort of borked up Broadband modem requires one to have a PC? Granted, this may be a geographical location issue but I can't think of any good reason why a broadband modem with integral DHCP should present a problem to anyone, let alone what brand and model of computer.


3 - Thousands of decent games

For those of us with families and social lives outside of the home this seems rather a peculiar knock against the MAC. I suppose it might be of interest to a young child or an early teen but computer games in general strike me as a huge waste of time and my kids don't have the free time with homework and sports to waste it. If there's some known 'life benefit' to playing Rainbow Six I'd love to see the research. Odds are it's not going to be a bullet point on a college application or getting a good job.


12 - Microsoft’s on your team

You must be joking. Does no one have any long term memory?


Until Vista SP1 our company had a great deal of difficulty with what few Vista machines we had. The great majority of our workforce still is either on XP SP2, OS X 10.4/10.5 or for a couple of our super geeks, whatever flavour of Linux is in vogue. Currently the Intel macs have shown to be robust and reliable since we started buying them a few months after Apple switched in early 2006. As for costs, this is tricky. The Macs run XP without issue and there are a few here with the first gen Intels that run both XP and OSX on theirs. In those cases we eliminate a machine, Looking at total time needed to maintain them for our in-house IT shows they consume less of IT's resources. Enough so that our CTO chose not to outsource our IT to Mexico last year so it must have been fairly significant. (Thank God too, I sorta like our IT guys. For IT they are remarkably well grounded)

All in all, looking at this list as a longtime Windows user since Windows 2.03 (I think in 1988? It's been a long time) I'd say it's rather flawed and many of the points are a bit of a stretch.
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
30 October 2008
mathue wrote:

3 - Thousands of decent games

For those of us with families and social lives outside of the home this seems rather a peculiar knock against the MAC. I suppose it might be of interest to a young child or an early teen but computer games in general strike me as a huge waste of time and my kids don't have the free time with homework and sports to waste it. If there's some known 'life benefit' to playing Rainbow Six I'd love to see the research. Odds are it's not going to be a bullet point on a college application or getting a good job.

You could say that about sport in general. There are several gamers, most of which are not "kids".
zystof
3 November 2008
Lol who cares about what they use in movies PC's are Better By Far!!
hacker16
5 November 2008
have you ever seen 8gigs of memory and a processer that could light the world on fire in a MAC.NO so END OF STORY
propagandhi
3 December 2008
This entire article was written by a complete imbecile, or maybe a collection of them. What a piece of absolute crap. Way to waste an hour or so though, making a bunch of weak assertions.
macsarebetter
12 December 2008
get up to date PC authority, the new Mighty Mouse has 2 mouse buttons, since 2005 you can run Windows XP/Vista on a mac- so games are not limited and PCs are just full of viruses and keep chrashing GET A MAC OR ELSE
ENFUSIA
15 December 2008
I was expecting some really powerful responses to defend Mac's against these 32 reasons. But all I thought was.........LAME!

P.S. PC's Rule!
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
15 December 2008
I've been given a MacBook from work, so I'm looking into it further with an open mind. It reminds me of Ubuntu. :P
Stylez
16 December 2008
best article in the world =]
scubasteve
17 December 2008
I have to say whoever wrote this is not only bias but also a retard. Before writing articles it might be worth getting facts right.
Stylez
17 December 2008
Stop saying 'they just work' non-stop quoting from advertising campaigns shows us how smart you really are.

This site awesome too check it out ;)
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant
malai5
17 December 2008
Why not have the best of both worlds, run Linux for your Unix "Fix", on a PC with Windows Dual booted.

Apple is just another version of Linux, anyway, (thats going to raise some flack) except it COSTS.

Cheers

Malai5

Edited by malai5: 17/12/2008 10:11:27 PM
Slatts
18 December 2008
.:Cyb3rGlitch:. wrote:
I've been given a MacBook from work, so I'm looking into it further with an open mind. It reminds me of Ubuntu. :P

So Cybe, a holiday job before Uni or are you going straight into the job market?

malai5 wrote:
Why not have the best of both worlds, run Linux for your Unix "Fix", on a PC with Windows Dual booted.

Apple is just another version of Linux, anyway, (thats going to raise some flack) except it COSTS.

Cheers

Malai5

Edited by malai5: 17/12/2008 10:11:27 PM

That's just nasty mal. you know these people don't have a sense of humour.[-x
malai5
18 December 2008
Sense of humour!

:roll:

Those who don't have a sense of humour give us the chance to exercise ours.
Sort of like nature's balance :lol:

Actually it's probably not real humour, just irony.;) (Which is serious humour)

Cheers

Malai5

Edited by malai5: 18/12/2008 08:59:30 PM
krazikiwi
18 December 2008
malai5 wrote:
Apple is just another version of Linux, anyway, (thats going to raise some flack) except it COSTS.

Cheers

Malai5

Edited by malai5: 17/12/2008 10:11:27 PM


yep, it is just another linux, minus the hardware support...
malai5
18 December 2008
Yeah, I forgot about that.
Applux only supports it's own hardware. Pretty limited game that.:-k

Cheers

Malai5
qt101
21 December 2008
Hi All,

WOW their are some haters in here :-/ see one such quote: PCLemmings Posted: Friday, 24 October 2008 11:13:14 AM amongst some of the others... I think there is Good and Bad in all OS's.

Speaking of patches - check the latest "Patch-Macday info": http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/16/apple_patch_release/

Yeah Mac's also have security flaws - and Apple have recently gone on air stating they would recommend that their users install AV software on their systems.

So... who ever say's there are no MAC viruses out there - [tut-tut] maybe check out your facts first ;-) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/02/apple_mac_av_advice/

All OS's have Bugs/Security Flaws/Vulnerabilities & Virus's! - the Operating Systems: that are more widely used 'will always be more exposed to threats' than those the aren't as proliferate.

I use different OS flavours and each have good and bad points. So why all the haters??? Lets be happy we have freedom of choice.

Misinformation is a shame: - why not try all before commenting with nastiness!

Btw: I also use VISTA and not had a problem with it at all. Most problems - come from those not using it the way it should be used; like with old hardware! - things not run with Admin rights etc.! [when installing older programs] - it's a good tip, to right click> when installing older progs and select [Run as Administrator] this will avoid older installation hiccups. Due to the new [User Access Control] permission, stoping some older progs/apps from installing correctly/error free. Making you believe they are unable to be installed on Vista.

:-) qt101

Edited by qt101: 21/12/2008 03:38:02 PM
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
25 December 2008
Slatts wrote:
.:Cyb3rGlitch:. wrote:
I've been given a MacBook from work, so I'm looking into it further with an open mind. It reminds me of Ubuntu. :P

So Cybe, a holiday job before Uni or are you going straight into the job market?


It's a traineeship. I'm likely going to quit though, since my UAI was better than expected.
Slatts
25 December 2008
.:Cyb3rGlitch:. wrote:
Slatts wrote:
.:Cyb3rGlitch:. wrote:
I've been given a MacBook from work, so I'm looking into it further with an open mind. It reminds me of Ubuntu. :P

So Cybe, a holiday job before Uni or are you going straight into the job market?


It's a traineeship. I'm likely going to quit though, since my UAI was better than expected.


It's good to have options.:)
David321123
1 January 2009
ummm wow you PC people. its plain and simple...PC's SUCK! when i had my PC (with vista) i had problems with it nearly every week..but then...I GOT A MAC!!!!! ive had it nearly a year and not one problem wtih it. and to people who say macs CAN get viruses, thats very true, but think about it. if you have a PC, there are MILLLIONS of viruses out there formatted JUST for PC. for mac there are very few. and if you do have a PC chances are you have Macafee. That system slows your PC down soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much it isnt even funny, but wait, macs dont need that. to skip to another point, ever try opening up 5-6 applications on a PC and then trying to open up internet explorer? takes about 2-3 minutes for it to completly come up. on a mac, no such thing. open as many applicatons as you like, still not slow. and as for the people with the price issue, seriously, mac comes with ALL basic neccesities and updates are free. with a PC, it costs to buy things like powerpoint and word and publisher. might i add that macs can run vista? i figured you guys knew, but hell, it runs much smoother than say on a PC. And one more small thing, isnt a Mac much much muuuch easier to take care of say something does go wrong with it? the apple store is so extremely nice and the people there couldnt enjoy their jobs more.

In all, PC's are a joke. and from now on and until an even better version of a computer comes out, PC will always be trying to catch up. and dont tell me i need to know the facts cause i could give a crap less. this is MY review of a mac and how much better they are than PC's.



PC's ARE THE BIGGEST JOKE EVERRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
1 January 2009
I'm glad you like your Mac David321123. Perhaps if you knew how to use a PC properly, you'd enjoy both platforms.
malai5
1 January 2009
WOW, david, that "Cool Aid" has certainly gone to your head.:shock:

I hope you can keep funding your "addiction" to the Mac fanboy "Club" because the "withdrawal" could be painfull.

Cheers

Malai5
Slatts
1 January 2009
David321123 wrote:
ummm wow you PC people. its plain and simple...PC's SUCK! when i had my PC (with vista) i had problems with it nearly every week..but then...I GOT A MAC!!!!! ive had it nearly a year and not one problem wtih it. and to people who say macs CAN get viruses, thats very true, but think about it. if you have a PC, there are MILLLIONS of viruses out there formatted JUST for PC. for mac there are very few. and if you do have a PC chances are you have Macafee. That system slows your PC down soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much it isnt even funny, but wait, macs dont need that. to skip to another point, ever try opening up 5-6 applications on a PC and then trying to open up internet explorer? takes about 2-3 minutes for it to completly come up. on a mac, no such thing. open as many applicatons as you like, still not slow. and as for the people with the price issue, seriously, mac comes with ALL basic neccesities and updates are free. with a PC, it costs to buy things like powerpoint and word and publisher. might i add that macs can run vista? i figured you guys knew, but hell, it runs much smoother than say on a PC. And one more small thing, isnt a Mac much much muuuch easier to take care of say something does go wrong with it? the apple store is so extremely nice and the people there couldnt enjoy their jobs more.

In all, PC's are a joke. and from now on and until an even better version of a computer comes out, PC will always be trying to catch up. and dont tell me i need to know the facts cause i could give a crap less. this is MY review of a mac and how much better they are than PC's.



PC's ARE THE BIGGEST JOKE EVERRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Wow david!!!!!!!!!!!!
You've like totally sold me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I totally agree it's a muuuuuuuuuuuuuch better idea to send your laptop to the manufacturer to get the battery changed.
Wow!!!! internet explorer!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't know people still used that!!!!!!!!!!!!
OpenOffice.org!!!!!!!!!! Just thought I'd drop that in cause it's sooooooooooooooooooooooooo free.
I'm so pleased to hear that all those nasty things I've read about the apple stores are untrue.

Hay, and happy new year everyone.:d
maclover
13 January 2009
I am going to go through and tell why each of these first 12 reasons is bogus...maybe later I will move on to more of them, when I have time...
1-each update costs $199, for a 5-user package...so if each new OS comes out every year, then you pay $40 per year for a new OS...that is probably less than you pay for 1 year of anti-virus, which macs do not need. So you get a new OS every year, and that $200 for the new Windows OS every 4 years is not needed.
2-these prices are so outdated...in the low-quality systems, PC can out-do Mac...however, in systems that cost over $1000, your Mac computer will cost less and have more features than your average PC...that expensive processor on Mac computers comes free, but is very costly on a PC...even though they are quite comparable in prices, your Mac system has much higher quality components, and will last much longer.
3-So there are no decent games for Mac? Look again...on the Apple website you can buy tons of Mac games, such as Call of Duty 2, Call of Duty 4, Medal of Honor, Doom, Age of Empires 3, Madden NFL, Tiger Woods PGA Tour, Command and Conquer, World of Warcraft, Battlefield 2142, Tradewinds Legends, The Sims 2, FATE, Guitar Hero, Star Wars Battlefront, Monopoly, Chessmaster, Need For Speed Carbon, and many more.
4-So your grandma can run it? right. But you still cannot complain about the mouse. The new trackpad is amazing, and if you want to, you can make it a 2-button mouse, but I sure wouldn't.
5-Mac computers have problems finding an ISP? Mac computers can pick up on most ISPs, but as far as High-Speed connections go (which 98% of the population uses), Mac computers have no problems whatsoever.
6-only 3 mac computer?...I counted 6, and each of those is customizable to whatever specifications that you want. The reason why Mac computers don't say "for home", "for Office", "for gaming", and so on, is because Macs were made to do it all. Just look at what you want to do, and customize your style of system to it.
7-Months Behind? what a lie! Mac computers are soooo far ahead of PCs!! Apple has the thinnest notebook on the market, the fastest desktop on the market, the most graphically advanced notebook on the market, the longest battery notebook on the market, extreme touchpads, incredible designs, great processors, high-speed RAM, solid-state drives, totally advanced all-in-ones, and the best and most reliable Operating System on the market. behind technology? think again!
8-outdated after January 1st? no way! Unlike PCs, Mac computers do not become out-dated for several years. Even though new technology made it so that your computer is outdated, your computer will still run the newest Operating system for years to come. Unlike all of those 512 MB RAM systems that became outdated because of Vista, Mac computers from 2005 can still run the newest Mac OS.
9-superior searching? yes, in Mac computers. Safari is the best and fastest web browser on the market, besides the fact that you have Finder, which not only leaves Windows search far behind, but it also can perform calculations.
10-Safety in numbers? Apple would never, ever, for any reason drop the Mac OS!! Windows sucks, and that is final!! Mac OS is the most compatible system only because of the fact that they wanted to make everything compatible. By making everything compatible, they number of systems which they sell on a monthly basis is growing incredibly fast.
11-The prices are wrong, and the service is superb! Mac support is excellent, but is hardly ever needed. It also costs at max $350 ($240 for students), and that is on the most expensive on the Apple notebooks. This includes 3 years of service, and from the time the system leaves your home to the time in which it returns is rarely over a week. Lets compare that to HP and Dell warranties. Your 3 year HP warranty costs between $300 and $370. I know from experience that it takes HP between 4 and 8 weeks to return a product. (It has taken up to 3 months, which is better than Toshiba's 8-16 weeks!!) Dell warranties are by far better than HP or Toshiba's. Dell's 3 year warranty costs $300, and there time from your home and back to your home is about 1 week, which is very comparable to Apple.
12-Microsoft is on your team? who wants that? So what, you get MS Office 2007 for $150, well, we get iWork '08, and now iWork '09, for only $80. That is not counting the fact that iWork is so much better than MS Office. Who wants Microsoft on their team? not me, I would rather stick with my friends at Apple.
I am now done with reasons 1-12 on why Mac is better than PC ;) I have not always been a Mac lover...I have been a PC user for 8 years, and am very experienced at using all types of PCs, different brands, different programs, different Operating Systems, and different computer types. I recently became a Mac person, and I still have a Windows XP, Windows Vista, and a Linux, so I can see how the different systems compare to each other. Mac TOTALLY OWNS all of the other systems, in every feature, speed, and program.


PC's ARE THE BIGGEST JOKE EVERRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!
I totally agree with David!! Mac ROCKS!!!!
flaky
20 February 2009
I like both platforms, this article is quite dishonest though and I don't think people should rely on disinformation when making their purchasing decisions. I'll continue on debunking the points here starting at 13. IMHO, most people will feel comfortable using PCs if that's what they're used to. Microsoft is releasing better and better products and their new operating systems are almost as good as OS X in terms of usability and value. If you want to try a Mac, it's an expensive jump, and it will interfere with your comfort level until you get used to it. The upside is better hardware and your mac will continue to run without issue or slowdown for years. It will also keep its value and you can sell it for much more than a PC when you upgrade or move on. I think Macs are best for home use, and Windows is better for business. The best of all worlds is virtualization, but it's expensive and unrealistic for most folks.

comments denoted by '---' enjoy

13 - Black’s still the new black
...the problem of your IT equipment becoming a fashion accessory.

--- First off, I hear PC folks constantly complaining about their equipment compared to others, this point is filler and applies to both platforms.

14 - The CD-ROM has an eject button
...And what happens on those occasions when the Mac refuses to open the disc drawer?

--- That's because the volume is mounted and in use. On a PC, you can remove the volume and hope the software can handle it. On a Mac, you have to stop using the volume before removing it. I don't see an advantage in the PC method.

15 - No confusing version numbers
...Here are the operating system requirements for Apple’s iLife 06 suite: “Mac OS X v10.3.9 or v10.4.3 or later; v10.4.4 recommended.” ...Even the most complicated Windows system requirements will only specify a service pack.

--- Google DLL hell. Apple providing point releases and using them is beneficial to IT folks. Microsoft uses Service Packs, but updates the system almost every tuesday and gives no easy method of knowing the state of the OS between SP numbers.

16 - What the hell was that?
[Apple] decided that a simple PC-like “beep” from the hardware to indicate the successful start of the boot process wasn’t annoying enough. Instead, it substituted the most appalling metallic clanging noise you’ve ever heard. And you can’t turn it off unless you mute the whole machine before you shut it down. Classy.

--- This is clutching at straws, it's called a POST beep, it means the BIOS tests of the hardware succeeded. Many PC MBs have it as well. Turning of PC post beeps is harder than turning off Mac POST beeps, btw.

17 - Cheap OEM versions
www.engit.com.au, is selling Vista Home Premium OEM for $150.40, which makes it more than $48.60 cheaper than the latest version of Mac OS X.

--- Newegg.com is selling OSX Tiger for $130, with docs and support, asenashop.com sells five licenses for 134.99 ($27 ea). You can install and reinstall and move your OS around without 'reactivation'.

18 - Far better media capability
... Windows Media Center is now built into Vista Home Premium and Ultimate, and turns your PC into a very effective personal video recorder, with its excellent onscreen television guide and the option to record all the episodes in a series. Apple’s Front Row, on the other hand, doesn’t offer any television features – in fact, it’s little more than a flashy front end for its iTunes software.

--- MacMini with EyeTV comes with HDMI, runs silently, and is much more attractive in a media center. Oh yeah, costs less too. The author is right in that Apple doesn't offer a good PVR solution themselves, but there are many options available.

19 - IT support expertise
When it comes to the workplace, Windows is the predominant OS by a mile ....there’s an army of support professionals out there with vast experience of making it work. ...you don’t need an MBA to spot the smart investment.

--- LOL, my company has ~60 Macs, ~20 *nix servers and ~30 Windows PCs. Our IT staff = 3 Windows IT soldiers and 1 Apple tech. OTOH, I thanks my lucky stars that PCs are difficult to work with, as it provides income for an army of support professionals, including me sometimes. As you say, "you don’t need an MBA to spot the smart investment."

20 - Not so insecure
...to suggest, as it does, that your PC is at risk from more than 100,000 viruses, is ludicrous.

--- they're doing what you're doing, exaggerating. It is true that a windows PC without virus protection is extremely vulnerable to attack. It is true that a Mac without virus oprotection is not very vulnerable to attack. It is true that it isn't difficult to protect a PC from attack, they leave that stuff out, just like you leave out the Mac mini with Eyetv as a PVR option, or the fact that OS X is cheaper than Vista if you look for competetive pricing for both platforms. I agree it's ludicrous.

21 - Copious amount of freeware
--- Find a piece of freeware on downloads.com that doesn't have an analog for the Mac, and that isn't relegated to cleaning up your Registry :) and you may have a point.

22 - What is it with Steve Jobs?
...he decided to upbraid the music industry for its addiction to DRM with a public statement on Apple’s website ... despite the fact that Apple has successfully locked people into the iPod upgrade cycle by applying its own proprietary DRM.

--- Wow, Jobs complains that the Music Industry forces it to use DRM and you blame them for using DRM that the music industry forces them to use.


23 - The menu is where?
...the menu bar for any given application is at the top of the screen.

--- Interfacce Consistency is one of Apple's goals, they don't always succeed, but at least they try.

24 - Full selection of peripherals

-- True, but with a 10% OS share (probably higher) and climbing, more vendors will invest in the lucrative Mac software market.
Lost-Benji
20 February 2009
ROFL, gotta love watching lovers of the "Rottern Apple" get all touchy.
Eddy
5 March 2009
Features of the system take them on the peak even that,s the pc or anyother
sotong
16 March 2009
Hey this is so bizarre & spooky. While I am still reading this article, hangs off keyboard & mouse, my DVD-rom ejected it's tray on its own! I have just finished the section about the "CD Rom eject button" & it happened! Can someone tell me please what's going on?
sotong
16 March 2009
Oops type error...should be "hands off my keyboard & mouse"
Roobok
30 March 2009
I've seldom, if ever, heard anyone mention keyboards when it comes to PCs versus Macs.

The Mac's keyboard is the most laughably ugly product in the world of computing.
In the computing world we are incredibly fortunate to have so many keyboards to choose from... basic, gaming, multimedia, and ergonomic. I'm lucky to have one that's whisper quiet to the touch, and for this reason alone I would find it hard to choose anything else.

Mac keyboards, however, are so laughably ugly that I can't understand why the Staff writers could possibily argue that "There still isn’t a PC maker on the planet that can hold a candle to Apple when it comes to product design". That's if they were refering to the look of the Mac and not other design aspects.
I've looked at them over the years, and played around with them.
Apple may think they have been clever with their changing designs, but they're always so cheap and nasty.

The M2452, which came out in 1998 made of translucent plastic. The first was 'Bondi blue', then came the darker gray, and the five fruit-coloured range.
Somehow I can't see how fruit colours would work in any office environment, and yes, there are businesses which maked use of Macs.

When I first saw the A1048, I was surprised. There was still no change to the ergonomics (or lack thereof), the keys still clicked like a woman wearing stilletos on a marble floor, and it didn't give the impression of class.

I haven't seen the ultra thin A1242 and its wireless brother which come with the new iMac, so I will reserve judgement.
spottydog
3 April 2009
I would ask these questions:

Who has the greatest market share?
Which OS is easier to use and learn?
How much does it cost to repair a PC versus Mac?
How many PC versus Mac repairers are in your local area?
What 3rd party software is available for each platform?

When you answer these questions, you will know why the PC will always be the majority and not the minority.
bugmenot
26 April 2009
well i would rather bite an apple than a PC. I used apple when oregon trail was the lastest game . and it sucked. apple is to pc like english is to chinese. backwards.
Unknown_101
6 May 2009
Goodies use Macs, Baddies use PCs???

WTF??? how dose this have anything to do with the dam computer????

Mods don’t rule

frankly my last tower had a water cooled cpu, a few led's showing off the goodies inside, as well as a nice LCD stat despaly at the front and always got something along the lines of 'holy shit, thats cool' but when i showed them i had a new iPod, they simply said so do i....yeh....

Triple booting?
umm i have a pc running atm that takes the place of 4 servers (given the pc is a monster) but i dont know what that was ment to say....
wheelnut53
20 May 2009
Gotta love it! I counted down till a Mac user came in and nit pick . Face it if you cant tweak your toy whats the use . Both are computers one is simple the other one isn't case closed.
twoworlds
3 June 2009
that wouldn't happen to be a shiny new MacBook on the latest issue of PC Authority would it?
Slatts
3 June 2009
twoworlds wrote:
that wouldn't happen to be a shiny new MacBook on the latest issue of PC Authority would it?

Oh! My God!
Say it isn't so[-o< [-o<
zeOmegaBoyo
6 June 2009
bishodante from the very start takes great efforts to appear young and "savy". All-knowing as sort of side effect of being "young." Thus even his way of posting is like a mac ad campaign, so he can leave readers like this O.O. However most of what he said is hot air, just like "the cloud" his head is "all about", haha take that mactard. "It's all about the iphone?" Bringing unrelated products into this conversation much? The "all about the" is very annoying and manipulative.

Actually he doesn't really say much of anything, but acts like he does, to make you "feel" not "think" he's right. Interesting, a study showed that's exactly how mac ad campaigns run. He even tries to get into unix (for the intimidation factor) which he most likely doesn't use. The warez scene, well it's true u'll never b l33t on a mac, not that I ever care about shet lyk that. I'm not trying to out-do someone based on superficial things.

Point blank, when you see what I create and compare it to what you create, you will know the difference is not based on what tools I use, it's based on the fact that I am a creative genius, and you are not. And I chose to use a PC. So stop this bs of judging people's ability based on tool's that aren't different enough to make or break a genius. That IS what annoys me about Macintosh and it's cult.

bishopdante did u lyk that pwn cake? Silly noob

-The Omega Boy
Slatts
6 June 2009
I just re-read bishopdantes posts and yes, it does read like he/she was typing one handed. I think you've wasted your accelerant though Omega. bishopdante left the building after desecrating it in August last year...
Still, good luck with your creating.:)
Nick9999
7 October 2009
I have been using a PC for about 6 years various types and most recently notebooks, one an IBM T40 and a french designed HP NX 6120, basically I lost stacks of money and the machines whenever there was a problem would need tpo be shut down so the machines wouldnt lose all the files. One serious problem I had was with the pc cillin and Norton antiviruses which the makers would funnel personal information about my usage and websites I have visited and deliver it to sopme religious organisations to use in all different ways. I am not prejudiced, vut I do feel violated that such an organisations (any) can abuse the rights of those who pay to keep their families safe. That is not all anyway because the PC is a piece of shit and Now I have discovered macs I would never go back to PCs again, Its LOL funny to see how they had so many people across the world fooled and the garbage tips in china have nearly poisoned all the local populations, My mate just got $400 for a clamshell, If you were lucky it might be possible to get $50 for an acer 400mhz. the acer would not still work on the internet but the mac still does. As far as I can see all you PC people should take a look around the corner at whats coming. I like the comment NO BS get your act together!
Slatts
7 October 2009
LOL
bloody troll.:^o
pcversusmac
13 October 2009
It is not fair to compare pcs and macs as it is likely comparing oranges with apples. Some people like oranges than apples vice versa. But because of features, reliability, the needs of people for using either PC and Mac , we can make an analogy like this:


Having PC is like having an ordinary car like toyota, honda, etc where people can afford and have lots of models to choose for and having Mac is like driving and having a luxury car such as: Lexus, BMW , Audi etc where they are dearer and pricer both for cost of buying them and maintenance. However in the long run, if you sell your luxury car, say in 10 years, you get more of it and they are more reliable and last longer than cheap cars.

Those who have money, I think they can justify buy apples as much as luxury cars than PC or toyota. Importantly you can not blame them for not liking toyota or pc as they like the features and stabilities of apples.

I have my lexus IS-F, and it will never be for me to come back and drive any ordinary cars such as: honda, etc no matter how cheap they are. They will not have the same comfortability and safety as the ones found in luxury cars.
ksnetsolution
19 October 2009
Macs have, for some reason, have never been very good to gamers -- games on the Mac have largely been an afterthought while Microsoft is balls-deep in its Xbox experiment.

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/the-side/opinion/why-macs-suck#ixzz0UMUIsFM8


ephedrine hcl
krazikiwi
19 October 2009
Has anyone here ever compared warranties between a mac and say, a lenovo?
Difference is amazing.
This is just one of the reasons I like PCs.
Now that mac use intel processors, they are just pc's in a shiny wrapper.
As for what pcversusmac was saying, prestige is something special.
No other will ever be as good as the expensive one if you have lots of money and listen too closely to salespeople...
The only reason macs don't like games, is that most games are written for windows, because most people use windows.
MacOS is a *nix operating system (or BSD, I'm not sure), and to start with, it won't play with .exe files. They also don't have a registry for the games to grab info from, and use a different file system.
Some popular games do get ported to mac, but only if there is a HUGE market for it.

Oh, and to nick9999, the acer 400mhz is probably a wee bit older than that clam shell.
In fact I find it unlikely that it even has a built-in NIC, which WOULD make it just a little difficult to use todays internet hardware...
retta1
19 October 2009
What difference does it make! Seriously, some people like to play games and some dont. Some people like macs and some dont. end of story. I like to play games and so have a pc. When i upgrade my boyfriends lappie it will be to a mac, for a couple of reasons
1: that it comes with software that with a pc you have to pay and so by the time you actually pay for all the software needed or wanted on your pc it is roughly the same damned price as a mac!
2: In a couple of years when i again upgrade the pc to play the next game that i really really want the mac will still be there and hopefully last longer that the lappie i currently ahve. 3: nothing against laptops but when something in incased in half steel and half plastic then the mac is full steel and we travel it makes the mac a little more sturdier! AND yes i have ACTUALLY gone and checked out and done my research on them and not listened to salesmen!!!! that is provided that you actually do pay and not use free/share/open ware and dont pirate stuff!
There and now i have broken my silence and my self-respect, as i said i wouldn't respond to this stupidity and I have!:roll:
krazikiwi
20 October 2009
lolz. don't spoil the fun...
you are right though, it doesn't matter, and the two are about as comparable as windows and linux anyway...
hey, why don't we start windows vs. linux match in another thread, that could be fun.
Slatts
21 October 2009

Linux is rubbish! windoz for the win!:twisted:


Er..
just kidding...8-[


retta1
21 October 2009
krazikiwi you're on! One thing tho, never had much to do with linux. on the old spare comp i am putting on ubuntu and giving it ago tho. should be interesting!:-k i will add another comment; what game can you get on xbox that you cant for ps say. xbox is just another ms in a box and no keyboard.
krazikiwi
21 October 2009
I'm pretty sure you could hook a keyboard up to an X-box and install XP on it. or linux.
madeinUSA
27 October 2009
There are more qualitative software for them.
Slatts
27 October 2009
madeinUSA wrote:
There are more qualitative software for them.

qualitative madein? or quantitative?
pizzaman552
18 November 2009
HAHA i love mac's number 7 reason. They tested macs top of the line computer against PC "conventional" one and some how concluded that because their best computer is better then PC's normal one that all Macs are better then PCs
oscarcharliezulu
1 December 2009
I'm a very long term Windows user, experienced over the years on mainframe, unix, os2, dos, gem, cpm, and even mac back in 1985 on an old fat mac. After using Vista Ultimate for a while on my shiny new C2D with 4GB, and not being happy with the performance compared to XP or 2000 Pro... I decided to try out OSX (i.e. a "Hackintosh" install). Compared to Vista, boot times are fast, shutdown even faster. Office for Mac is fine, and Firefox and Thunderbird more than good enough. And for web development it is excellent with all the built in UNIX capabilities like SSH and FTP that you need built in. In reality I found that the OSX OS did everything I needed. Problem with a Hackintosh was it would not update easily (at the time, things are better now)... so I bought a cheap mac mini on ebay. And who said Macs arent upgradable - in fact it is the challenge that makes it worthwhile. I upgraded the Mac Mini 1.66GHZ to a C2D 2GHZ, ram to 2GB, disk to 500GB 7200rpm and the little thing flies under Snow Leopard. Hardware upgrade took all of 30 minutes. I am now looking at the iPhone dev kit and its a lot of fun messing around with. I'd have to say, unless you are a gamer, the Mac is a perfectly good "pc" that can handle anything anyone really needs. In fact, I think the ease of use is fantastic and I will suggest to my parents to move from the old hand-me-down PC I got them years ago to a mac - I really think with a mac they will get a lot more out of their computing experience. And seriously, if you havent tried the platform - whether it is Win, OSX, Linux, you should reserve judgement - for me the joy of computing is the discovery and use of new and unique software and hardware. So now my working machines are a Win7 and a Mac and it is the best of both worlds.
gregzeng
11 December 2009
Long running discussion here! The Mac users I know are: 1) $$ RICH; 2) Self-important arrogant; 3) Ultra-status chasing; 4) Use computers nil or minimally; 5) Outsource and purchase any misunderstandings, ignorances, repairs, etc; 6) Are thechnophobes.

The best example I know is the most powerful government department in the biggest state in Australia - the Public Service Board of N.S.W. for status reasons alone, they status-plushed their offices with "artistic", ultra-expensive Apples. Of course, since they were so superior & senior, hardcopy, face-to-face & dictaphone was what they really used. Not sure how much this waste of government money contributed to the poverty (in EVERY way) of the N.S.W. government.
Slatts
12 December 2009
Looks like you're not in a hurry for this thread to die greg?
Such comments are sure to ensure at least a few more comments.
BTW, NSW is the third smallest state.
Tazzy, Vic, NSW.
Admittedly, it is the most over populated.
Joe22c
12 December 2009
That was a well written compelling list of reasons.

Perhaps another indicator of whether or not PCs are "better" than Macs lies in the demographics.

First off I'd like to mention that my older brother, who has his master's degree in computer sciences and was top of his faculty in his undergrad AND my best friend who is currently doing his undergrad in computer engineering both agree that PCs are superior to Macs.

In contrast, one of my friends in an ARTS program feels vehemently that Macs are better. Hmm. What do you think?

Also. Whenever there's a debate erupting in facebook re: PCs vs MACs, someone should first create a set of criteria defining what constitutes an idiotic, childlike, immature post (bad grammar, faulty logic, too many exclamation marks) then proceed to count how many mac-users and how many PC-users make said posts.
Slatts
12 December 2009
Joe22c wrote:

someone should first create a set of criteria defining what constitutes an idiotic, childlike, immature post (bad grammar, faulty logic, too many exclamation marks) then proceed to count how many mac-users and how many PC-users make said posts.


Come on joe.
you want us to alienate some of our most prolific contributors?!

:-k :lol:

edit: tidied up edit of quote.

Edited by Slatts: 12/12/2009 08:25:51 PM
XDMoose
21 December 2009
linuxonmac wrote:
32 reasons for those who don't know better. I don't know about adds but I use both, PC and Mac and comparing them is just not fair - PC is soooo inferior. The only advantage PC has over Mac is number of programs available for it.
About G5 being inferior to Intel for years - how did you test it? And what about Cell chip from IBM? Intel will get there in 4-5 years. Maybe.
It would be interesting if author of this article try to spec PC similar to the biggest 24" iMac (including monitor). And by the way - how many monitors (any size) can compare in quality to iMac? Not many. I doubt he would be able to beat the price. Let's forget about look as that would be too much to ask from gray box manufacturers.
Oh yes I said I use PC as well - XP is fired up from time to time but Linux Mint is main resident on that machine. 3D desktop included and multiple workspaces of course - Windows will get there in next decade hopefully.


Comment made about the PC Authority article:
32 Reasons why PCs are Better than Macs?
Apple’s ads may be funny, but they’re woefully inaccurate. Here we reveal dozens of reasons why the PC outclasses the Mac.

What do you think? Join the discussion.

He's right and the programs are mainly games
Slatts
21 December 2009

I'm glad you've found a kindred spirit Moose.

PublicBarScrote
8 March 2010
well people , no matter what u buy, Bill gates is getting paid. because he own part of Apple. LOOk it up
Slatts
8 March 2010
PublicBarScrote wrote:
well people , no matter what u buy, Bill gates is getting paid. because he own part of Apple. LOOk it up


So...

this is news?



Mal Content
7 April 2010
As a sysadmin with over 12 years of experience. I consider the best use of a Mac is to keep a pack of morons off PCs.
Mettalic_ank
8 April 2010
Here is one:

Raw Speed : Windows PCs have a serious edge here. Where time is money, processor speed can be very important. Regardless of how hard Mac advertising attempts to claim that the slower clock speed Macs are really just as fast as a PC, it just ain't so and proven so by every bench test out there. If you have the "need for speed" in gaming, software development, 3D rendering and other applications, Windows is the clear winner here.
chinaronald
18 April 2010
Can you please show me the interview or video where apple states "it isn’t interested in touchscreen technology." I just want to know so that i know it's not something you took out of nowhere
Bozo01
21 April 2010
I wonder how many games will be available to buy on Steam for Mac?
patrick555556
23 April 2010
hahhahahahah you PC users
i have a school windows laptop and a family imac
Mac osx is easier to use by far in that aspect there not even comparable
Macs have heaps of programs i always uuse my mac and i never found a program not for mac.
the reason macs are more expensive is cause what there made from top quality wires and and shit and titanium steel frame not plastic crap like EVERY pc . thats why there a bit dearer coz they use the best stuff not cz apple wants to make them expensive abusive and miss-spelled expletives deleted.
macs are faster coz the OSX was made For the computer not thecomputer which can run the OS. Games are for xboxes and PS3s not computers they can be used but if u want to argue the games aspect we will slink off and play our console.

Edit by Slatts: childish expletives removed or modified and poster suspended.
I'm sure Apple people can come up with more grown up flaming than this.:-k

Edited by Slatts: 23/4/2010 06:39:14 PM
Schprocket
28 May 2010
Time to update this three-year-old article.

And why is it "Apple" people and "PC" people?

And don't forget the "Linux" people who slip between the cracks...

Why is it that is always comes down to a moronic p*ssing contest like Ford v Holden, PS3 v 360 instead of highlighting the virtues and pitfalls with every system ?

All this type of 'report' provokes, in jest as it may be. is the typical fan-boy drivel seen here over the last three years.

I've worked, tinkered, built and operated PCs under all three OSs. There's things I like and things I don't.
If I was still gaming, I'd be into Windows but I'm more into editing and recording music so I find myself favouring OSX although there's some good Windows apps. Linux I'd love to get a handle on but they generally insist on naming apps in some CLI-executable-friendly manner which can be confusing (how WIndows makes us 'old-hands' soft, eh? :) ... ).

Microsoft earns kudos (begrudgingly :) ) because their OSs have to be able to run on a wide variety of hardware permutations.
Linux is similar but earns its kudos freely because the majority of the fixes are made by the users themselves.
Discounting the continuing Darwin project and it's affinity to OSX, OSX only has to operate on a relatively 'narrow' set of hardware, thus ensuring a higher degree of _certainty_ that OSX won't fail due to a 'lethal cocktail' of potentially mis-matched components which bring about BSODs as a result of low-level driver-conflict, or even board-level conflicts which only come to light when 'taxing' a boards resources.

On the hardware front, the 'balance of power' when it comes to peripherals always favours the Windows platform. It's hard to beat an operating system that's practically given away with a PC. Even today, I doubt most newbie PC consumers are aware that Windows isn't an integral part of the computer.

With that hardware, inevitably there are drivers which must be loaded and this can also be a constant source of headache.

When peripherals start to get to the 'serious' end of town however, particularly with audio equipment, things start to get interesting.
It comes as one helluva shock to open up a package and find all of this Windows software and drivers and barely anything in the box for OSX.
And you find that inevitably, your Windows driver CD, which will work on systems from 2000 to Win7 but only 32-bit versions, will be anywhere from one to twenty revisions out, dependent on how long the device has been sitting on the shelf.
However, that peripheral may have also been designed with OSX Core Audio. Consequently, you'll get the OSX version of whatever the main app was which came with the hardware, plug the device in, and it just works. Go to Audio/MIDI preferences, set-up what you want, and away you go. You can even create an aggregate Audio device so there's no need to throw out the old device if it still works; you can simply combine the I/O of all units in whatever fashion you see fit. Try doing that in Windows...

Anyway, as I said, time to lock this thread, throw away the key, and write a new article comparing all of the operating system platforms on a wide variety of applications (audio, video), not just gaming, office apps, and CD/DVD ripping...

Cheers!
pawzlion
4 June 2010
"the pick of which are a new “Finder”, a way to see all your open windows at once, and bundled video-messaging software. God knows how insignificant the other 147 were.".

Wait. Finder is the file system explorer. How you could you NOT know that ? You would expect even the most ignorant windows user would know this. Let alone a journalist. But then you go on to describe Expose, referring to it as Finder. And then go on to admit that you didn't even bother reading what the rest of the improvements were ! My GOD, your ignorance and lack of journalistic skill knows no bounds, does it ? I won't even both trying to educate you on on the MASSIVE kernel and subsystem changes that go into every new OSX release be it would obviously go straight over your head. I stopped reading your drivel after the above quote and skipped straight to the comments to read the hysterical laughter of the mac users. You don't deserve to be a journalist. I don't think you're intelligent enough to collect my garbage.
biohead
10 June 2010
PC is still better than Mac but for now.
curtisglover
14 June 2010
Try the Internet with no firewall experiment!
http://www.thegeekpub.com/641/macs-rule/

See how long the Windows PC lasts. The Mac still hasn't been compromised!
Slatts
14 June 2010
curtisglover wrote:
Try the Internet with no firewall experiment!
http://www.thegeekpub.com/641/macs-rule/

See how long the Windows PC lasts. The Mac still hasn't been compromised!


Only a fool or a nub would be browsing without some form of firewall curtisglover.

Doesn't matter what OS you're using.

xxvaderxx8
29 June 2010
My main reasons why pcs are better than macs

1- Mac people dont shut the f*** up about how great their macs are, and pc people really don't give a s*** but eventually have a mental breakdown and start yelling "I DON'T F***ING CARE!!!! OKAY!!!!"

2-If you are a gamer, buisnessman (or buisnesswoman) or even a lowlife hacker pc is the way to go, it supports the best grapics, has the best buisness software and the most viruses are made on it :D

3- Macs are f***ing ridiculous for pricing.

Those are only three randomly picked ones from my list
Slatts
29 June 2010
xxvaderxx8 wrote:
My main reasons why pcs are better than macs

1- Mac people dont shut the f*** up about how great their macs are, and pc people really don't give a s*** but eventually have a mental breakdown and start yelling "I DON'T F***ING CARE!!!! OKAY!!!!"

2-If you are a gamer, buisnessman (or buisnesswoman) or even a lowlife hacker pc is the way to go, it supports the best grapics, has the best buisness software and the most viruses are made on it :D

3- Macs are f***ing ridiculous for pricing.

Those are only three randomly picked ones from my list


No no,don't hold back xxvaderxx8.

Tell us what you really think.:)

lawrence_o
7 July 2010
Windows explorer wins handsdown from finder. Hahaha? That's a laugh dude. windows needed untill Vista before it offered indexed searches! As
lawrence_o
7 July 2010
Windows explorer wins handsdown from finder. Hahaha? That's a laugh dude. windows needed untill Vista before it offered indexed searches! As a developer, searching for libraries, I am 50% more productive at least working on the mac as compared to the windows machine. Take into account that mac has built in Unix support, which is widely used in professional environments, the Mac again has 1 plus over the PC. Oh and did I mention the widgets? Again something that took windows a few years to copy. Ok I know Mac also stole the idea but anyway. How about OS efficiency and performance? True, the PC may offer a faster CPU more quickly and cheaper. Then again, My 4 years old Mac still beats a 2 year old Dell starting up, booting up JBOSS app server and in multitasking. Why? Because OSX consumes wayyy less system resources than windows does. Hence it needs less hardware power to be equally fast. THen there is the workflow. In windows, go to the conrol panel and try to find the right icon amongst the zillion in there. Mac System panel is easy to overview, easy to manage. You need way less mouse-clicks to get where you want to be. Vista is more like a combination of a zillion features and things to be sure they have it all, making the OS insanely heavy, totally user-unfriendly while 90% of the people will use only 30% of them all. OSX is the opposite. They include only those features which 90% of all of us will ever use. For the things missing, there's always a work around or a third-party app somewhere...
Configurability of the PC: true. You could install a 3000USD graphics board to cope with your 200USD medium quality flat screen, overdoing it really bad and wasting a lot of money. Apple know what graphics board is more than adequate for that screen. One more thing. My Macbook Pro is 4 years old. Thanks to the update to snow leopard it became faster then at the day I baught it. Try that with windows. Mac isn't perfect though. 10.6.3 was a total screw up. Safari crashed with a LOT of flash sites. Even now it sometimes still does. On the other hand, websites look like shit on IE8 and predecessors whereas they look awesome on Chrome/Safari/Firefox. So much for the windows experience.
blockcentre
7 July 2010
lawrence_o, perhaps your Mac can help you with paragraphs so that people will actually bother to read your rants?
rubaiyat
8 July 2010
I was puzzled by the "comparison".

If I am getting it right you were doing all your testing with the Mac running Windows 7? Then comparing that to PCs also using Windows 7?

How about making the PCs Hackintoshes and testing them running Mac OSX 10.6 to even things up. Or more logically test software such as Photoshop, Cinema 4D, mp3 RIPs, video extraction conversion, games etc running natively on both platforms.

How about running Ubuntu on both? There you have exactly like with like.

The whole point of Macs is not how well they imitate a platform that Mac users consider inferior, but how well they perform similar tasks.

The reviewers reveal considerable ignorance, such as mentioning that the point of distinction of the PCs vs the iMac is touchscreen, WiFi and Bluetooth. Certainly the 1st (on some machines) but every iMac has come with the last 2 by default since I can remember, which is a long way back, and mostly before PCs. Also not every PC has WiFi and Bluetooth and you can get Macs with touchscreens.

The absence of Firewire or HDMI on the PCs got no mention.

Overall I thought the comparison was considerably shallow and largely along the line of Macs are different (in some ways for the better) and strange because of that. Oddly from a Mac User's perspective it is Windows that is the one that is different and failing desperately to catch up. Since history shows that it is Windows doing the copying, the later has more merit IMHO. There also seems to be a general design clumsiness in Windows that we can't seem to quite match on the Mac.

I do agree with a few points.

1. Apple's obsession with springing new technology at intervals, lets it grab the lead for a while then fall behind because of the lack of constant progressive hardware updates. This is compensated for by Apple doing the exact opposite with the Operating System. Issuing far more updates and then incrementally improving those for free.

2. I do think the Dock is a dumb idea, but I have learnt to live with it or use alternate methods/software. This is hardly an advantage for Windows though as W7 has tried to copy it in a limp sort of way.

3. The absence of USB 3.0 and Bluray on the Mac are the price we pay for Apple making some major decisions in their own self interest. However given the distinct practical superiority of Firewire 800 over the paper "superiority" of USB 2.0, I am always skeptical of PC claims until they actually demonstrate them.

To sum up, this Mac vs PC article sadly did nothing to advance the debate at all.

I could have written this off the top of my head and without the obvious errors and omissions.
rubaiyat
8 July 2010
@PublicBarScrote:"well people , no matter what u buy, Bill gates is getting paid. because he own part of Apple. LOOk it up"

Guess that sums up the average PC, can't spell, hasn't a clue about grammar and has heard some "facts" once upon a time and keeps repeating them to unfortunately let everyone know just how little they know.

PublicBarScrote, follow your own advice. Actually "LOOk it up", don't pretend that you have.

As for the old "Macs have viruses too, but are inferior because they don't have the incredible choice that Windows users have": Name them. Then name anyone who has actually got one.

I can't recall any of the countless people I know who have switched to Macs saying "Macs suck, I really miss the 10s of thousands of viruses, trojans, spyware, adware and nasty foul mouthed poorly educated PC users."
cinderellachic
9 August 2010
Hi, just thought you should know, i spent forever registering on this site just to comment 2 let you know how much of an idiot you are! And I quote: "World of Warcraft (yawn), Crazy Machines: The Wacky Contraptions Game (What the?!) and The Sims II – a two-year-old title designed for loners who need imaginary friends to compensate for the lack of actual people in their pitiful lives." End quote. For starters, World of Warcraft is far from yawn. Even if you're completely against it, it is still a fair way away from yawn. It, subsequently, is the third most popular game OF ALL TIME!! the Sims franchise, of which I am a frequent player, is the second most popular computer game EVER!!! It has millions of users worldwide!! So, in retrospect you just called millions of people worldwide "loners who need imaginary friends to compensate for the lack of actual people in their pitiful lives," you just insulted a whole lot of people. dickhead.i cant even be bothered continuing.
blockcentre
10 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
How about making the PCs Hackintoshes and testing them running Mac OSX 10.6 to even things up.


Legal issue, perhaps?

rubaiyat wrote:
Or more logically test software such as Photoshop, Cinema 4D, mp3 RIPs, video extraction conversion, games etc running natively on both platforms.

How about running Ubuntu on both? There you have exactly like with like.


How would that, in anyway, change the results of benchmark testing? Whether it's Ubuntu or Windows on both, you're still running like for like. Your statement lacks any logic at all. Oh, and have a read of what the PC Authority benchmark tests include ;) Besides, you wouldn't want a benchmark of 3D or games running natively on both platforms - OSX couldn't keep up.

rubaiyat wrote:
The whole point of Macs is not how well they imitate a platform that Mac users consider inferior, but how well they perform similar tasks.


Agreed. But with benchmark tests (which is what you're talking about here) the only way to test the HARDWARE is to make the platform the same. So it doesn't matter what OS it is, the hardware should just perform and provide a result in the benchmark test. It can't be OSX as Apple won't allow their OS to be installed on non-Apple hardware so it must be run in an alternative.

rubaiyat wrote:
The absence of Firewire or HDMI on the PCs got no mention.


Sorry, which PC's are you talking about? If you mean to say that PC's don't have Firewire (IEEE 1394) or HDMI then you need to do some research.

rubaiyat wrote:
There also seems to be a general design clumsiness in Windows that we can't seem to quite match on the Mac.


That comes down to individual user opinion. Very hard to compare.

rubaiyat wrote:
The absence of USB 3.0 and Bluray on the Mac are the price we pay for Apple making some major decisions in their own self interest. However given the distinct practical superiority of Firewire 800 over the paper "superiority" of USB 2.0, I am always skeptical of PC claims until they actually demonstrate them.


USB3.0 offers much better performance and value than Firewire 800. This isn't a paper superiority. Apple should have included it in their latest lineup.

rubaiyat
10 August 2010
blockcentre wrote:
Legal issue, perhaps?


Me offering mirror "solutions" to the PC "solutions".

Quote:
How would that, in anyway, change the results of benchmark testing? Whether it's Ubuntu or Windows on both, you're still running like for like. Your statement lacks any logic at all. Oh, and have a read of what the PC Authority benchmark tests include ;) Besides, you wouldn't want a benchmark of 3D or games running natively on both platforms - OSX couldn't keep up..


The object is to see how well the software performs as the user would employ them. If OSX can't keep up that is a good result, and can be used to beat Apple on the head. However running under the native OS taps into OSX Core frameworks which IMHO are some of the better features of OSX.

Quote:
Agreed. But with benchmark tests (which is what you're talking about here) the only way to test the HARDWARE is to make the platform the same. So it doesn't matter what OS it is, the hardware should just perform and provide a result in the benchmark test. It can't be OSX as Apple won't allow their OS to be installed on non-Apple hardware so it must be run in an alternative.


Not quite. Everything else maybe industry standard. The one thing that is unique on the Mac is the Graphics Card support.

Quote:
Sorry, which PC's are you talking about? If you mean to say that PC's don't have Firewire (IEEE 1394) or HDMI then you need to do some research.


I don't need to do much research to find that not all PCs offer FW800 or HDMI or MiniDisplayPort. There are also PCs that don't even have speakers. These plus a lot of other features are standard on every Mac model.

Quote:
That comes down to individual user opinion. Very hard to compare.


There are 10s of millions of Mac users who find that the most obvious point of comparison. You may wish to ignore it because you can't put a ruler on it, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. Windows users are always claiming that the Mac design is "wrong" until Windows copies it, then it metamorphosis's into "right" until a better copy of the Mac then comes out when the "right" becomes "wrong" again.

Quote:
USB3.0 offers much better performance and value than Firewire 800. This isn't a paper superiority. Apple should have included it in their latest lineup.


That may be because USB 3.0 has finally copied some of the features of FW, but and this is a big but, I'll hold my approval until I see it in action. Until now all PC users claims to USB superiority, as with many things, has turned out to be hogwash.

Edited by rubaiyat: 10/8/2010 05:42:01 AM
blockcentre
10 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
Me offering mirror "solutions" to the PC "solutions".


So your solution is to do things illegally? On that note though, there were several magazines that reviewed/benchmarked the Pystar systems (recent Mac clones) before Apple had them shut down. In all the reviews, the Pystar systems outperformed the comparable Mac due to flexibility in the hardware.

rubaiyat wrote:
However running under the native OS taps into OSX Core frameworks which IMHO are some of the better features of OSX.


No, incorrect. These "core frameworks" that you're talking about don't go anywhere near the development platform that is Windows when it comes to making use of the hardware.

rubaiyat wrote:
Not quite. Everything else maybe industry standard. The one thing that is unique on the Mac is the Graphics Card support.


That's true. The graphics card support is actually very lame compared to the Windows platform. Being stuck with OpenGL is one example of that.

rubaiyat wrote:
I don't need to do much research to find that not all PCs offer FW800 or HDMI or MiniDisplayPort. There are also PCs that don't even have speakers. These plus a lot of other features are standard on every Mac model.


That's true. It's because there isn't a standard model of PC. A PC owner can select exactly what they need. For example, a office PC would not have a need for either FireWire, HDMI or a MiniDisplayPort, so why should they have to pay for those inclusions? PC's aren't a "one-size-fits-all" model. For those that need/want these options, they are there plus lots more. This would have to be the lamest argument you have made so far.

rubaiyat wrote:
There are 10s of millions of Mac users who find that the most obvious point of comparison. You may wish to ignore it because you can't put a ruler on it, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. Windows users are always claiming that the Mac design is "wrong" until Windows copies it, then it metamorphosis's into "right" until a better copy of the Mac then comes out when the "right" becomes "wrong" again.


Once again, it's personal choice which shouldn't be included in a review. I prefer Windows however I wouldn't want the reviewer to state that they did as well as it's irrelevant in the review.

rubaiyat wrote:
That may be because USB 3.0 has finally copied some of the features of FW, but and this is a big but, I'll hold my approval until I see it in action. Until now all PC users claims to USB superiority, as with many things, has turned out to be hogwash.


Seriously, just stop. Now you're making yourself look very ignorant. Do you need to see the Bugatti Veyron in action before you know it's the fastest car? User "claims" are based on performance tests that were conducted.
rubaiyat
10 August 2010
Most of the above remains to be proved, which is why I asked for a real OS vs OS test.

You didn't follow what I said about the graphics card. They are not identical to PC graphics cards and have an embedded chip to make them Mac compatible which will I presume have an effect on the results for the better or worse. That is to be tested and needs to be tested running natively in OSX. You just saying doesn't make it so.

The fact that there are different models of PCs is irrelevant and you seem to have a rather simple mentality on this. What is relevant is whether like is compared with like. Both sides of the debate are equally guilty of this, alternately cherry picking whatever suits their argument then twisting round to compare different samples to make another cherry picked argument.

eg If comparing costs, add up each feature to check they are all comparable and present, before making sweeping statements based on ignoring the bits you don't like.

As for preferences I can say I like Junk food over either healthy food or carefully crafted restaurant food. That is an opinion backed up by the huge numbers of junk food eaters and outlets. It doesn't however make junk food superior, only popular. Just as ask the mob what they like in art and it is usually women with big tits, purchased from Paddy's Markets.

If you examine consumers, you will find that their choice is usually based on laziness, ignorance, unfamiliarity, conditioning with childhood toys and bombardment by advertising. Close examination of their favorite food for example shows excessive amounts of sugar, salt and saturated/trans fats along with chilli and other masks used to disguise the poor ingredients prepared by trained-monkey fryers.

So it is not simply a vote of hands, the big picture and review by experts is more likely to get a result based on real knowledge, and not choices made from old habits and fears.

I have already said that USB 3.0 maybe faster than FW800, but I temper that by the same claims were made about USB and USB 2.0 repeatedly by PC users, when it was clearly not true (code for PC users lie a lot). There are few USB 3.0 devices out there still, with few PCs supporting them. There is also the issue of whether the faster USB is not trumped by the internal drive and bus speeds. That is why I will hold my judgment until I get to try one and/or real usage data is in.

Edited by rubaiyat: 10/8/2010 12:40:27 PM
rubaiyat
10 August 2010
blockcentre wrote:
Seriously, just stop. Now you're making yourself look very ignorant. Do you need to see the Bugatti Veyron in action before you know it's the fastest car? User "claims" are based on performance tests that were conducted.


Now who is looking ignorant:

http://www.thesupercars.org/fastest-cars/fastest-cars-in-the-world-top-10-list/

…and that's ignoring every other car ever to approach the speed of sound or exceed it.

What else do you "know"? I "know" you can make this quick.
blockcentre
10 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
You didn't follow what I said about the graphics card. They are not identical to PC graphics cards and have an embedded chip to make them Mac compatible....


Is that really what you think?! The only difference between an ATI 5670 in an iMac and an ATI 5670 in a PC is the SOFTWARE. Except of course you can get various options with the PC in terms of memory, speed, etc. This "embedded chip" you speak of is nothing more than fiction.


rubaiyat wrote:
eg If comparing costs, add up each feature to check they are all comparable and present, before making sweeping statements based on ignoring the bits you don't like.


I'm pretty sure that happens, except when comparing the iMac as there isn't a PC with a 27in screen that's an all-in-one. Instead you simply configure the PC and supply a 27in LCD with it.

rubaiyat wrote:
So it is not simply a vote of hands, the big picture and review by experts is more likely to get a result based on real knowledge, and not choices made from old habits and fears.


Although most of my time is spent using Windows, I have used OSX many times over the past 5 years. I'm not an expert in OSX but I know enough to know that I find the interface annoying to say the least. You would feel the opposite. So how can you base a review on that? To remain objective, you have to take the intricacies of the OS out of the equation.

rubaiyat wrote:
I have already said that USB 3.0 maybe faster than FW800, but I temper that by the same claims were made about USB and USB 2.0 repeatedly by PC users, when it was clearly not true (code for PC users lie a lot). There are few USB 3.0 devices out there still, with few PCs supporting them. There is also the issue of whether the faster USB is not trumped by the internal drive and bus speeds. That is why I will hold my judgment until I get to try one and/or real usage data is in.


No, it's faster. Benchmark tests of both technologies conducted prove this. I don't need to test the standard myself to know it's faster as others have done this for me. Even at the last MacWorld they concluded that USB3 will outperform FireWire 800.
blockcentre
10 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
blockcentre wrote:
Seriously, just stop. Now you're making yourself look very ignorant. Do you need to see the Bugatti Veyron in action before you know it's the fastest car? User "claims" are based on performance tests that were conducted.


Now who is looking ignorant:

http://www.thesupercars.org/fastest-cars/fastest-cars-in-the-world-top-10-list/

…and that's ignoring every other car ever to approach the speed of sound or exceed it.

What else do you "know"? I "know" you can make this quick.


Jesus Christ! You missed the point of my statement....

FFS whether it's the Veyron or any other car is irrelevant! You looked up on that website there and it says that the SSC Ultimate Aero is now the worlds fastest car, yes? So do you need to drive the fricking car to know its the fastest? Or are you going to take the word of the person that tested it and the stats they provided?!

This is exactly what you did, but when it comes to the performance of USB3 your response is "I'll hold my judgement until I get to test it..."

So are you PERSONALLY going to test every piece of kit out there just to verify the multitude of benchmarks already conducted?
rubaiyat
10 August 2010
No, but for obvious reasons I'm not going to take your word on it.

It's obviously not based on much, except a smattering of guesswork and hearsay, from other "knowledgeable" PC users, equally challenged.

You don't even know how to Google!

Edited by rubaiyat: 10/8/2010 07:32:04 PM
Slatts
10 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
No, but for obvious reasons I'm not going to take your word on it.

It's obviously not based on much, except a smattering of guesswork and hearsay, from other "knowledgeable" PC users, equally challenged.


10 points for the use of the bold tags rubaiyat.

Unfortunately you loose 12 points for credibility.

But hey! you're probably used to that.

rubaiyat wrote:
You don't even know how to Google!


Hey wow, does google work on macs?

rubaiyat
10 August 2010
Slatts wrote:
rubaiyat wrote:
No, but for obvious reasons I'm not going to take your word on it.

It's obviously not based on much, except a smattering of guesswork and hearsay, from other "knowledgeable" PC users, equally challenged.


10 points for the use of the bold tags rubaiyat.

Unfortunately you loose 12 points for credibility.

But hey! you're probably used to that.

rubaiyat wrote:
You don't even know how to Google!


Hey wow, does google work on macs?

rubaiyat
10 August 2010
Hey illiterates, like to earn some of those points for yet more of your spelling errors?

If! you can figure them out.

btw How do you sign bemused exasperation? BE? Or are those words are a bit "two" big for here.

Let me summarise your reasoning so we can all get on the same page:

"Nah, nah. Nah, nah, nah. Nah. (looks around proudly for signs of approval)."
Slatts
10 August 2010
might be time to get those dosages recalibrated there rubaiyat.

Either that or your meds are loosing their efficacy...
blockcentre
10 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
No, but for obvious reasons I'm not going to take your word on it.

It's obviously not based on much, except a smattering of guesswork and hearsay, from other "knowledgeable" PC users, equally challenged.

You don't even know how to Google!

Edited by rubaiyat: 10/8/2010 07:32:04 PM


I didn't ask you to take my word for it.

You could visit several tech websites such as Tom's Hardware or Anandtech. I doubt you can get more credibility than those two sources. Even at the last MacWorld they declared that USB3 would offer greater performance and flexibility than FireWire 800. One of the biggest criticisms by Mac users to the new lineup is the lack of USB3 when the technology has been readily available for 6 months now.

Google?! What's this Google you speak of?

That's okay though, you just keep reassuring yourself. Hopefully the tin foil hat holds out for you.


blockcentre
10 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
Hey illiterates, like to earn some of those points for yet more of your spelling errors?

If! you can figure them out.

btw How do you sign bemused exasperation? BE? Or are those words are a bit "two" big for here.

Let me summarise your reasoning so we can all get on the same page:

"Nah, nah. Nah, nah, nah. Nah. (looks around proudly for signs of approval)."


Ouch! Such quick wit and stinging logic.

You win. I'll go and purchase a MacBook in the morning. Owning one will obviously solve my literacy issues. :roll:

rubaiyat
11 August 2010
Stinging logic is not exactly the commodity of the day here.

Tin hats and speaking in cliches is.

No computer will solve basic ignorance btw. Your basic mistake is the belief that possessing hardware makes up for lack of effort.

Edited by rubaiyat: 11/8/2010 03:12:23 AM
blockcentre
11 August 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
No computer will solve basic ignorance


Oh I know! You've proven that countless times so far...


rubaiyat
11 August 2010
…says blockcentre looking admiringly in the mirror.
johnpall
25 September 2010
1 main reason why OS X puts Win 7 to shame, Ease of use!
saki_g
14 October 2010
I do think Windows 7 is very easy to use. But so is OSX. They're both good at what they do and I see no reason to compare. Win 7 exists to make both Windows and Mac users happy.
rubaiyat
14 October 2010
I think the "ease of use" reputation is a carry over from the old Classic Mac OS.

OSX due to its UNIX roots and somewhat arbitrary decisions by Steve Jobs is more difficult and oddball.

Windows 7 is quite easy to use for a Mac user. There are aspects to be criticised but OSX can also be criticised in parts.

Windows lacks certain great conveniences that we are used to in OSX however. Those plus comparative illegibility, tacky design and the underlying problems of poor security and vulnerabilities is what turns me off.

Edited by rubaiyat: 14/10/2010 04:57:44 PM
blockcentre
15 October 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
I think the "ease of use" reputation is a carry over from the old Classic Mac OS.

OSX due to its UNIX roots and somewhat arbitrary decisions by Steve Jobs is more difficult and oddball.

Windows 7 is quite easy to use for a Mac user. There are aspects to be criticised but OSX can also be criticised in parts.

Windows lacks certain great conveniences that we are used to in OSX however. Those plus comparative illegibility, tacky design and the underlying problems of poor security and vulnerabilities is what turns me off.

Edited by rubaiyat: 14/10/2010 04:57:44 PM


In that sense, Windows 7 has proven to be as secure as any other OS out there. It's true that most of the malicious crap out there that infects people's computers is written for Windows. There's no denying that. But that comes down to market share more than anything else. If you're phishing for email addresses and want to hijack someone's computer, are you going to aim for the 5% or the 95%? It also comes down to the user. You've stated so many times that Apple users are generally more technate than their Windows counterparts. So do you think that might have a bearing on security at all?

Win 7 is far more secure than XP which was first released 10 years ago. That's a long time. The security issues that exist now rest with the user. Microsoft tried to contain everyone via the UAC with Vista but the first thing the users did was turn if off as they didn't want to be prompted for the admin password before installing or changing something.

In terms of design, I don't think Win 7 is tacky at all. Not compared to the Crayola XP environment. It's actually quite clean on default and there are thousands of different styles that can be applied if you don't like that one. In that sense, to me, it's very "Mac-like".

I *might* be willing to give OSX a look but there are a few things that old me back... dependence on Apple-only hardware and the lack of software for what I use. In that instance I'd be more willing to run Ubuntu. At least with it I'm not hardware restricted.

Each to their own really.

The bonus is that a strong competing Apple means that the others need to lift their game. After the disaster that was Vista and the crap that the major manufacturers have pushed out for a long time, competition has resulted in massive improvements from them all. It's the three-A's (Apple, ASUS and ACER) that should take credit.

saki_g
15 October 2010

Windows 7 is hardly tacky, and I'm not sure what people mean when they say 'illegibility.' Fact is that it is easy to use and way ahead of Vista- that's the most important thing because it benefits both Windows AND MAC users. Now, I haven't used OSX extensively but it looks great and easy to use...it's not like there can only be ONE good OS and that people who don't switch are somehow stupid. I love the idea of a competitive market with good products, Operating Systems included. What bugs me is how some mac users feel the need to sling mud at Win 7 like it were some kind of threat which makes it imperative that they point out that OSX is better. It isn't even a question of what OS is better, when you think of it. Since Windows is also used by MAC OWNERS, everyone benefits.

rubaiyat
15 October 2010
Sounds like we will be all on "7" soon. :)

Apple currently has a teaser out for a Mac Event on October 20. The card shows a Lion peaking through a rotated Apple logo cut out.

The current OSX 10.6 is called Snow Leopard, so it looks like we are looking at OSX 10.7 "Lion".

Doesn't sound very snappy to me.

I've teased the Mac Forums, that this will be the ultimate Steve Jobs switch and he is going to announce as of 2011 all Macs will run on Windows 7.

Windows 7 is a vast improvement but it still falls short of OSX in a wide range of usability issues and some features. To see those it is better to do it on a Mac than just talk about them. You can do that by walking into any Apple Store or Centre where they are freely accessible (because there are no security fears). Unlike with Windows.

Microsoft has built in their own backdoors into Windows so they can spy on you. So can the Hackers.

Mac OSX lacks that "feature".

Windows users still make the false argument that Mac OSX is virus free due to smaller market share. It has always had smaller marketshare and the classic Mac OS did have viruses. It has always had very hostile PC users to contend with. You think they hate Windows more than the Mac and so attack their own machines by preference?

We could discuss usability issues till the cows come home. I can name just a few obvious pluses like labels, and that things tend to be universal such as dictionaries, thesaurus, Internet & Wikipedia lookups, auto-correction, color selections, fonts, access to resources etc. among many others, but a great deal is the thought that has gone into the entire system and the depth of the underlying frameworks which are available to all running applications.

Windows has always broken many of the fundamental User Interface rules, such as working with natural reading order on screen, using clear English in dialogs and reducing the number of steps to achieve objectives to the bare minimum. Most of these are attempts at disguising the copying of the Mac OS by just being contrary. Many are just clumsy and lack of skill on the part of the programmers. The later explains why the interface lacks the crispness of Mac OSX, despite Apple introducing silly "features" like reflections on Dock icons.

btw You can not Mod the Mac OSX UI much, with the exception of Finder replacements or extensions), so it is quite feasible to Mod Windows to look superficially like OSX, but not the other way around. It shows the lack of comprehension of Windows users that some seem to think that that icons and windows are all there is to differentiate the 2 systems.

Mac users are given far more latitude in positioning, naming and labelling and not as restricted by Windows' ban on certain characters in names. Even the file extensions in Mac OSX which were introduced to make us more compatible with Windows are not strictly necessary.
blockcentre
16 October 2010
It comes down to how you like to operate.

There are fundamental differences (errors?) in any OS. These can be listed, but there's no point.

I have tried operating in OSX (both myself and my wife) and it caused us nothing but frustration and grief.I find Ubuntu far easier to work with than OSX just by a few fundamental differences. But that's our personal experience. I don't expect that to be the same for everyone.

Trying to compare operating systems based on their usability is just silly as everyone likes to operate differently (see my comment above).

Having now spent a lot of time with Windows 7, I'm very impressed that Microsoft could get so much right after years of getting so much wrong. The operating environment for someone like myself who must, at times, be very efficient, is excellent and very productive.

Once again, my opinion. You disagree and that's fine. That's the benefit of having strong competition in the market.

Their "spying" is based purely on the operation of their OS, tracking updates and ensuring that your software is legitimate. Nothing more. Anything else is just made up rubbish. All that is pointed out in the EULA so if you don't like those terms, don't agree and don't install. No one is making you use Windows with your new computer. You could just as easily get a copy of Ubuntu sent to you free of charge and install that.

You buy or build your own PC, you get choices.
saki_g
18 October 2010
Well I don't use OSX but if the mac league are getting their own version of "7" and if it happens to be even better than OS10.6, good for them. An improvement on an OS is always welcome, regardless of whether it was a good OS to begin with or a bad one. People had many complaints with Vista, so you can imagine how relieved they were when Win7 came out. But nope, it's sad that this just has to become another 'My OS is better than your OS' war. I don't agree with the OP either...PC Better than Mac? Or even those saying that Mac is better than PC(?) It just opens that same old can of worms.

Mac users will have their OS10.7 AND their Windows 7 via bootcamp. Windows users will have their Windows 7 and probably Windows 8 after that. And Linux will have whatever distribution comes after Ubuntu.


Edited by saki_g: 18/10/2010 02:43:41 PM
rubaiyat
19 October 2010
You're right making comparisons and decisions is so difficult.

Better not to think about it. You know how it upsets your mother.
rubaiyat
19 October 2010
blockcentre wrote:
Their "spying" is based purely on the operation of their OS, tracking updates and ensuring that your software is legitimate. Nothing more. Anything else is just made up rubbish. All that is pointed out in the EULA so if you don't like those terms, don't agree and don't install.


…not that Microsoft has ever disabled the OS on your PC because it failed certain rules after you upgraded the hardware.

…not that any PC user ever upgraded their hardware and had to beg Microsoft could they please have it back.

…not that putting it in the EULA is a sop since you have no choice in the matter.

…not that Hackers frequently access Windows machines and have their evil way.

…not that you want to pay attention to the endless articles on the subject that seem to eternally plaster the cover of every PC Magazine on the planet.

…not that the real rubbish is that it is "Nothing more".

…not that you want to pretend that none of this happens.
blockcentre
19 October 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
[quote=blockcentre]Their "spying" is based purely on the operation of their OS, tracking updates and ensuring that your software is legitimate. Nothing more. Anything else is just made up rubbish. All that is pointed out in the EULA so if you don't like those terms, don't agree and don't install.


rubaiyat wrote:

…not that Microsoft has ever disabled the OS on your PC because it failed certain rules after you upgraded the hardware.

…not that any PC user ever upgraded their hardware and had to beg Microsoft could they please have it back.


So for some people (only the enthusiasts), who upgrade every two years, need to take 3 minutes and make a phone call to Microsoft.

Whhooaaa! That's just terrible! Microsoft should just allow people to freely pirate their product! In fact why don't they just release Windows Pirate Edition so that everyone can buy one copy and install it on 50 computers. That's the go!

rubaiyat wrote:
…not that putting it in the EULA is a sop since you have no choice in the matter.


You do have a choice. Don't install. You don't have to agree to the EULA, you could install an alternate OS such as Linux or go and buy a Mac.

rubaiyat wrote:
…not that Hackers frequently access Windows machines and have their evil way.


Yes! I'm getting hacked right now! In fact there's 15 hackers hacking my machine and I'm hacking another 5 computers myself as I write this! I'm just evil... evil, evil, evil!

rubaiyat wrote:
…not that you want to pay attention to the endless articles on the subject that seem to eternally plaster the cover of every PC Magazine on the planet.


Ummm.... geez... you must be new. Either that or all the magazines you buy are full of rainbows, unicorns and four-leaf clovers. Sensationalism anyone?

Yes it's a big talking point. Not because it's there but because it's the only real solution to solving the piracy issue.

Most major software producers are now including activation and verification in their products now. Adobe, Intuit, Symantec, etc, etc are including it in all versions of their software.

rubaiyat wrote:
…not that you want to pretend that none of this happens.


I didn't pretend that it doesn't happen.

It's just not as big a deal as you make out. I don't have any issue at all with Microsoft making sure my copy of Windows is legitimate. It only rears its head when I decide to upgrade my hardware. I had to make two phone calls to Microsoft in the near 10 years that I ran Windows XP.

I'd keep an eye out on Apple if I was you. With the patents they've been submitting on software the tracks users, expect some coming your way soon.

rubaiyat
19 October 2010
You're talking iOS4 I presume.

Seems to go with the territory, which is how Melbourne's tram apps know where the tram is. They know where the users on the tram are.
rubaiyat
19 October 2010
blockcentre wrote:
Most major software producers are now including activation and verification in their products now. Adobe, Intuit, Symantec, etc, etc are including it in all versions of their software.


But oddly not the Evil, All-Controlling Apple?

You stay within Microsoft's North Korea, because it is better the dictatorship you know than the Maybe-One-Day-It-Might-Be-One-Because Look-What-Happened-To-Us-Regime of the foolishly happy people outside.

In the north you can proudly choose from thousands of different shackles.

In practice they aren't really a problem. You can still shuffle your way through the day. Even though you hate changing, them it's such a pain.
saki_g
19 October 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
You're right making comparisons and decisions is so difficult.

But surely, hurling personal insults and name calling make it a lot more than just a discussion on 2 different OS and their advantages/disadvantages. What does decision making or thinking have to do with it?

Quote:
You know how it upsets your mother.
See what I mean? :) Then again, you're no worse than that mac user who built the anti-windows shrine in youtube, so go on. I thought it was a joke at first but seeing the tone of your posts, it's clear that some of you really hate not just Windows but all those who use it.



Edited by saki_g: 19/10/2010 01:35:30 PM

Edited by saki_g: 19/10/2010 01:38:40 PM
blockcentre
19 October 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
You stay within Microsoft's North Korea, because it is better the dictatorship you know than the Maybe-One-Day-It-Might-Be-One-Because Look-What-Happened-To-Us-Regime of the foolishly happy people outside.


No I stay with Windows because no other platform can meet my needs.

It's that simple.
dmeeren
19 October 2010
Mac claims to have a unix core, so why not run a PC with FreeBSD (Sounds better too) ;-)
rubaiyat
20 October 2010
I must go check yet another dubious claim by Apple, …That it has a UNIX core!

Whilst at it, must also check the revelations that it is owned by Microsoft, Intel and the Illuminatti.

It has been slow dawning on me, but I am finally learning that it is not what Apple has done, such as copying the Amiga, Linux, Microsoft and countless others before they even thought of whatever it was they were eventually about to innovate, it is always what it is going to do!

In the PCAuthority version of the Minority Report, Apple is being charged with Future Crime by the obviously supremely well informed and thoughtful PC mob. Who have carefully and dispassionately put their case here!

No partisanship, name calling, mocking from the illiteratti, or blind partisanship has lead to the jury's decision. No, it is solidly built on common knowledge and scientifically not-liking Apple.

And no way that I can defend Apple based on what it is clearly going to do!

I stand aside, Apple deserves all that you can deliver.

Let your punishment be an example to all that might, possibly, one day, some time in the future, it is possible, for all one knows, mayhap, who can tell, it is with the fates, should the gods so choose, conceivably, by happenstance, if the dice fall that way, imaginably, in some likelihood, on the off chance, in the dim dark future be as bad as Windows and Microsoft are today.

Don't be swayed by cries of innocence, calls for facts, (or even quality guesswork), to substantiate these charges.

Harden your kind, dispassionate, impartial, nonpartisan hearts and do your duty! Strike now whilst you still can.

Before it is too late!
saki_g
21 October 2010

On the other hand, I look at all the mac campaigns and see a fat, bald, aging white man who we are all supposed to identify with. The PC user is boring, inept, tasteless and conceited, they say. Nope, no mudslinging there. :)

I look at my brown skin, the skin of my neighbors who use PC, and assume that all poor countries who use the PC as a computer of choice are somehow supposed to relate to this man. I see mac users talk about how easy it is to get a mac and that good mac service without even caring that it might not be the same scenario for other countries. I look at posts that brag over college students (THEIR college students, I presume) flouncing to school (hope for the new generation!) with their mac laptops and this is supposed to be the future. Once again, it's a country only perspective.

It's a big world out there. It's not the same for everyone.
rubaiyat
21 October 2010
I 100% agree with you on this one. Whenever I criticised Apple on this they would change the subject. Apple at one stage was the best computer to do multi-lingual publishing. I used it for that for over 15 years. When Steve Jobs came back he turned his attention to making the company financially sound and trimmed off everything that didn't pay. OSX does a pretty good job of working with all the scripts and languages of the world even some very obscure ones. It is not so good with right to left scripts and has taken a decade you get back to this point. I stopped doing Multi-lingual work 8 years ago.

The ads are America gazing firmly at its own navel. We in Australia, and the rest of the 1st world, are allowed to look on and have whatever crumbs fall off the table paying 25% to 35% more for the privilege.

Apple flatters us with an Australian dictionary which is nothing of the sort, it rejects common Australian words.

Just keep your perspective though, those ads would never have been broadcast anywhere but America.

The characters were to represent the computers, not the users. It would be fair to say that PCs and Windows are generally behind the times, grossly fat and boring. Each iteration as Microsoft copies some more OSX only makes it slightly less boring, but still behind as OSX moves on again, and still wildly bloated in its use of resources.

The ads were funny, and hit their mark. A vast improvement on years past. It is commercial propaganda after all.
saki_g
22 October 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
Just keep your perspective though, those ads would never have been broadcast anywhere but America.


Information gets spread via the internet much faster nowadays. You'd be surprised how techno savvy a lot of countries are, including those in the third world. Where I'm from (Philippines) people who don't even own computers go to net cafes or find other means to join social media networking sites like Facebook where they can go online. Youtube is just one of those sites frequented. How do you think I saw that ad? Someone sent it to me. I can't remember if it was via twitter or facebook, but it goes to show that you can't expect an ad to stay within its country of broadcast, given the means we communicate these days. Word of mouth, online websites, microblogs, there are plenty of ways to spread a commercial. If Apple truly sees itself as a worldwide leader when it comes to the desktop Operating System, this isn't reflected in the way they make their ads, nor their target audience.

Quote:
It would be fair to say that PCs and Windows are generally behind the times, grossly fat and boring. Each iteration as Microsoft copies some more OSX only makes it slightly less boring, but still behind as OSX moves on again, and still wildly bloated in its use of resources.


What do you mean by boring? Isn't boring a subjective experience where what you'd consider boring may not be the same for another person? You can't assign yourself as authority on the subject when what you have is just another POV. Fat and bloated. Again that is your opinion. Even you have to admit this is offensive towards heavier people. The Windows guy is chubby and he is also smug, inept, and insert negative adjective here. As for originality- I've used OSX and Windows 7. I would say that certain functionalities are similar, but I wouldn't say Win 7 was a blatant all-out copy of OSX. If Windows 7 was a blatant rip-off OSX, how could you say one is boring and bloated while the other isn't? Which is it, really?

Also, I'm not concerned if Windows did copy some Apple features or even features of Linux, for as long as it wasn't done in an illegal way. People put so much stock into whether something is original and free from influence. I understand how being innovative is admirable, but for me, it isn't the end all or be all of a product. If a program works well, then it does well. I don't really care whether or not it was the most original in so and so aspect, etc. Does it help me do what I need to do without much hassle? Frankly, it does. You've obviously had a different experience, but that experience is your own. The way I see it, not all PCs were created equal. In the Philippines, most people who want a stable system swear by the non-branded desktop...bought from a reliable local store. Brands like Asus (affordable) and Sony (for the high end market) are also known to be very reliable. Each company treats its products differently and to put all of them together as if they were one and the same because you've had a bad experience with one or even 10 of them is subjectively biased.

Quote:
The characters were to represent the computers, not the users.
Given that Apple chose to use people to represent the computers, won't it be inevitable that the personal characteristics exhibited by the characters of the ads would be seen as a reflection of the users the ads are targeted at?

You can interpret the ads on many levels. Just because Apple only had the intention of comparing the machines doesn't mean that everyone took it that way. Given the way they executed the ad, can you blame users if they chose to interpret it as an attack of personalities? Look at your posts. You think Windows users are a bunch of deadheads just like the computers they use because they won't switch. Is that not a way of extending your dislike of the machine to the user behind it? It'll take awhile to convince anyone that those ads were not meant to be personal attacks, because they hit on very many personal levels. Fat PC user can't get the girl. Fat PC user is smug but pretty much useless. Cool Mac guy gets girl. Cool mac guy gets no viruses. Cool mac guy is useful.

Since people (and a lot of mac fans I've observed such as yourself) seem to think that the computer is the extension of the self, it's hard not to believe the ad projects that belief.

Quote:
The ads were funny, and hit their mark. A vast improvement on years past. It is commercial propaganda after all.


Something Apple is very good at. They make so many commercials with some kind of attack propaganda on their enemy, be it IBM or Microsoft. Whatever floats your boat.

It's funny because only 10% of the Philippine population is wealthy and middle class. Only probably half of this community use mac. But they see those ads just like the rest of you. You'd be surprised how many computer technicians there are here who don't even own a branded computer. Apple thinks of themselves as a world leader but only so many countries worldwide can relate to their ads.


rubaiyat
23 October 2010
Again it isn't meant for you. Not even us. Apple does virtually no advertising in Australia.

Don't fret over it.

Windows 7 absolutely copies OSX. It is obvious enough to a Mac user. Microsoft's developers even admitted to having a Mac in their offices and studying it for how-tos. Something they obviously always did but wouldn't admit to.

Just because they tried to copy OSX doesn't mean they faithfully or completely copied it or even did a good job. They may even have sneaked in an original idea themselves. It has been known to happen.

Given that Apple has always been targeted to be isolated and sidelined, I am not surprised that Apple has counter attacked. The ads are subtle though. Mac is usually quite magnanimous and open, PC is left to condemn himself and it wouldn't work if it didn't ring true to a lot of PC users. They have been switching in droves. Mac sales are up 50% over last year's in the middle of a terrible recession in the States.

You should not be so sensitive, believe me we Apple users have copped it far far worse and in ways that actually count, not just words.

The reality is that service support and even mindshare only chase the almighty dollar. Currently in Australia it is the almighty iron ore/coal dusted dollar. We are under siege from American and European entertainers fleeing their newly 3rd world economies and trying to get a slice of that Down Under prosperity. We couldn't get rid of Pink until finally her work visa ran out and it was either go into the Villawood detention camp or back to work for the Tennessee Valley Authority.

My advice to you in the Philippines is discover something valuable that the USA wants but isn't going to get up a sweat invading for.

Edited by rubaiyat: 24/10/2010 12:11:22 PM
rubaiyat
29 October 2010
This pretty well sums it up:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/media-and-marketing/gruen-unpacks-the-fact-from-advertising-fiction-20101028-175pg.html

It is saying, perhaps more eloquently, what I repeatedly say in both these forums and in the Apple forums is that Apple and any other major corporation is lying when it says it is your friend and has your interests at heart.

Will Anderson is also a Mac user, I have run into him at the AppleStore. I don't know if he also runs anything else, but he certainly has a MacBook and iPhone.

Since it appears we both seem to share the same cynical viewpoint, I would say we are Mac users despite Apple.

Given the choice it is the best of a pretty rotten bunch. Short of starting our own major international corporation, that is what we are stuck with.

I see both Russia and China are having a crack at building their own UNIX OSes. Good luck to them. We may need someone to turn to if everything else gets utterly dumbed down or totally screwed up in the pursuit of features and brain dead consumers.
rubaiyat
2 November 2010
This debate has come up in a new and novel form:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20021379-265.html?tag=fromCommunity;quoteAuthor

One of the more apt quotes from respondents to the story:

Quote:
FROM OUR COMMUNITY
As a government employee myself, I see this all the time. If it's not from Microsoft it doesn't get a second look. An interesting approach when you consider the government has extensive rules in place to thwart domination by a single vendor. We can't, for example, mandate a particular brand of office chair. That would be illegal. Yet we can mandate a single OS and office suite from a single corporation?
by CDubber November 1, 2010 12:16 PM PDT
Slatts
4 November 2010
rubaiyat's quote wrote:
We can't, for example, mandate a particular brand of office chair. That would be illegal. Yet we can mandate a single OS and office suite from a single corporation?


I guess office chairs don't require a trained support or security infrastructure...:-k

rubaiyat
5 November 2010
No but apparently Windows does.

Lots & lots of it.
jmdolphin
8 November 2010
here are several reason i like pc over mac (I have a imac and pc (wifes). one: i buy a kodak printer. the software for the pc has nice software to use with scanner and printer. the software for the mac has a utility that tell you how much ink and paper you have and that is all. two: it always takes 5 extra steps to do something on the mac vs the pc. three: it is always about apple making money nothing comes free or affordable. Publisher on pc is great, a good publisher on mac cost over 300 dollars. four: keep photos and graphics out of the mac main folder or it takes many steps to work with it. Use programs that access the folders directly on a iphone and transfer photos to your own special folder. always try to bypass itunes or they will mess with your music and photos and make it difficult to work with. five: find me a good scanner program and i will be happy. i doubt you can. none will just scan a picture, let you work with the picture, make it any size you want and print it to the printer all in the same program.. I know one that will but it is on the pc-- in fact the software that come with the kodak printers for the pc will do that but not the software for the mac. SIX: so what does my mac do best-----it runs pc software and windows 7 under parrells six as good or faster than on my wifes pc. microsoft publisher, word do great. an old game i had for windows xp run better now on my mac with windows 7. seven: apple/Mac has no idea how to make it simple and easy. always have to go through some extra steps and time consuming route to get it done. iphone for example-----make a ringtone on the iphone. does it go directly to the ringtone folder. NO! you now have to sync the phone on the computer go to itunes, step through several steps and then send it back to the iphone (they call the iphone a smartphone????). on the nokia phone i use when travel outside usa--- it creates a ringtone and put it in the right folder and then i select it on the phone and presto! I have a new ringtone. My dont i use the iphone outside of usa because i do not want a 500 dollar bill when i get home.. I use my nokia place a sim card from that country-- i can call back to usa for less that 1 cent per minute, access the internet, sent photos home, text message for less that 30 bucks per trip, Again it is all about money with apple. a great deal of the software for mac follows the same theory. i could go on and on. but this post is large enough.
rubaiyat
8 November 2010
Where do you start?

1. Learn to type, write, punctuate and break up your text.

2. When you have done that show some evidence that you have actually used the Mac.

3. So much nonsense about no free software. Didn't you look under the keyboard? Apparently that is where they hide it all!

4. Ludicrous claims abound, so I'll just deal with just the 1st one. No Publisher on the Mac! Actually there are dozens, of which Apple supplies Pages as part of the iWork suite which is 3 fantastic apps all for US$69 with your Mac.

There probably are some legitimate beefs in there but given the overall level of ignorance and difficulty in reading it, it isn't worth the effort in winnowing them out.

What is it with Septic Tanks these days, no wonder the country's going down the toilet. Clueless and illiterate. They used to be able to actually make a lucid case for their arguments. Now they can barely stumble through a sentence without dribbling.
rubaiyat
10 November 2010
Quote:
"it's on over time how much it's going to cost us on support. We spend a lot more time supporting Windows OS than Mac OS," he said, pegging it to about three times as many man hours used supporting a PC as a Mac.

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20022144-260.html?tag=topStories3#ixzz14nYULCBy
johnpall
24 November 2010
Again rubaiyat has the final & most truthful post, i totally agree the TCO on PC's is higher and don't let anyone else think this is not true!

We should start a rival 32 reasons why PC's need more cost to support, but Authority would'nt like a real taste of their own medicine would they?
Slatts
24 November 2010
johnpall wrote:
Again rubaiyat has the final & most truthful post, i totally agree the TCO on PC's is higher and don't let anyone else think this is not true!

We should start a rival 32 reasons why PC's need more cost to support, but Authority would'nt like a real taste of their own medicine would they?


John, feel free.

Andranos
25 November 2010
Nah, i just throw away my Mac 'cause it sucks. Reason is i'm a gamer and Mac is really really really sucks for gaming. So i recently bought and alienware M-15x to replace my Mac

Anyway, I give my Mac to my sister 'cause she use it for design and i don't care. Maybe for design Mac is better but i don't really care at all lol.

U can't just judge which one is better or not. Because it depends on people needs. My sister said that i don't need laptop that is very powerful like my alienware but for me i need it cause when i play game, i want to play it in maximize graphics. So we have different ways of thinking.

Anyway guys, i don't mean to insult Mac or anyone that support Mac, i just wanted to tell you guys that it depends on people needs. So don't judge a book by it's cover (i don't know if there's any connection or not lol).
rubaiyat
26 November 2010
Seems to me lol that most PC users only use rotfl their PCs lol for two things and that is play games and watch prn lol.

I don't know what the other PC user uses it for.
rubaiyat
26 November 2010
Oh I remember.

He uses it to produce the crap that the Mac user then has to fix up. Endlessly.
Andranos
29 November 2010
lol, Mac is not even as powerful as my alienware, so if i able to watch prn and play games, it is better than no abilities at all right??
Just see the fact, Can u find even 1 Mac laptop that is as powerful as alienware?? Nope i don't think so, or maybe u cannot afford an Alienware lol that's why u stick with low level laptop.
Hmm... okay than, in that case, i know the reason why you choose that low level poor guy. End of The line. Thanks crap
rubaiyat
29 November 2010
One can not fault the superb oratory, reasoning or logic above.

It speaks for itself. In fact it simply shouts "PC!"
Andranos
29 November 2010
Yeah PC is way much better than Mac. 32 vs 11. And that cannot be denied. Macs are just too "months behind". I couldn't find anything interesting when i used my Mac even if it cost for $2900. Macs should be only for girl or designer. It is better that i STILL can play game using my Alienware rather than with Mac which is sooo inferior.
Andranos
29 November 2010
Well it is also my fault though i compare a Mac with Alienware, because the gap is too far. Sorry, i should compare it with other laptop, my fault dude.
rubaiyat
30 November 2010
PC ar two poo poo.
rubaiyat
30 November 2010
79,000 people surveyed by PCWorld seem to have something to say on this subject:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/211074/the_tech_brands_you_can_trust.html?tk=hp_fv
Andranos
30 November 2010
Yup PC is way much better, Mac is just the pee of PC

No advantage, even a small advantage.
Andranos
30 November 2010
Realibility for what?? I think that is all advantage i've seen for my whole life reading article about Mac, and that is all they can say about Mac. Other?? Nope, it just a tiny little sh!t
Andranos
30 November 2010
Oh other than that, if u are a GIRL, than what want is the fashion looking. Hahahaha
rubaiyat
30 November 2010
Andranos

You are obviously intelligent, highly educated, remarkably well informed and with a sense of humor constantly triggered by the "ruly" clever things you say.

A poster boy PC user!
cocka2clarks
30 November 2010
If there are 32 reasons why a pc is better than a mac there must be a million and 32 why a MAC is better than a PC. A pc is for gamers a MAC is for computer users.
Andranos
30 November 2010
@Rubaiyat yes i know a lot about technology and i am smart cause i'm an IT guy so i know a lot more than most ppl here especially this COCKa2clarks who is so stupid.
Hey Cock, can u even give me list of 20 why MAC is better than PC please?? I'm desperately want to know about that!!!
rubaiyat
1 December 2010
Andranos I wouldn't worry what people say about you, they only say you are an incoherent, foul mouth moron because they're jealous.
Andranos
1 December 2010
Yup, of course other ppl will be jealous if i have PC not a Mac. I will be jealous too if i use Mac and my friend use OTHER than Mac especially ALienware. And of course they are jealous 'cause i have more knowledge than them (including you maybe??) Yeah i'm not worry either rubaiyat
'Cause everything i said is true not like most ppl here who only say shit, maybe including you?? Most of your post like shit to be honest
rubaiyat
1 December 2010
That is just so laughable. People are jealous of you because you have a PC!?

I think they are jealous of you because of your tricycle with the new shiny bell on it.

I very much doubt you are in IT. Even they have standards.
Andranos
1 December 2010
WHAT REALLY??!! OMG u are jealous if i have tricycle with new shiny bell dude??? OMG!!!! How old are u dude?? Still playing around with your tricycle?? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Now this is more laughable!!!!

Very much doubt?? U wanna say thank you very much?? Dude speak english properly.. It is better than you of course who still in 5th grade and learn how to use proper english LOL!!! Dude you're sooo stupid!!!

At first i thought u're some kind of smart guy who just have big mouth. It turns out that you're still in 5th grade and playing around with your tricycle!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA... Oh you're so funny and sooooo stupid!!!
(Well 50% stupid, 25% funny, 25% talks like shit)
rubaiyat
1 December 2010
Hmmm. Nobody could be this thick, it must be a parody.
Andranos
2 December 2010
Well if you don't talk like shit, i won't even add any comment.
DJ...
4 December 2010
Turn my back for 5 minutes and the discussion deteriorates into childish name calling. :-(


Given that this illustrious magazine, previously known as "PC" Authority has itself declared the winner of the "Best Tech Award 2010 - PC Category" as coming from Apple, and the "Best Tech Award 2010 - Laptops" as ALSO coming from Apple should lay this discussion to rest. There may be some reasons why a pc is better than a Mac, but overall the Mac is better than a pc, for many many many many reasons (a lot more than 32).

THE AUTHORITY has declared Apple as makers of the BEST PC and Laptop. Nothing more to say really. (This probably explains the satisfied smile on rubalyat's face - when you're right, you're right on).
Andranos
4 December 2010
Hmm... This is so interesting, okay DJ thx for the confirmation. Oh but, "many many many reasons (a lot more than 32)" Please tell me 'cause i don't really get it how can apple beat pc. So tell me please. I'm desperately want to know...
gone4good
4 December 2010
DJ... wrote:
Turn my back for 5 minutes and the discussion deteriorates into childish name calling. :-(


Given that this illustrious magazine, previously known as "PC" Authority has itself declared the winner of the "Best Tech Award 2010 - PC Category" as coming from Apple, and the "Best Tech Award 2010 - Laptops" as ALSO coming from Apple should lay this discussion to rest. There may be some reasons why a pc is better than a Mac, but overall the Mac is better than a pc, for many many many many reasons (a lot more than 32).

THE AUTHORITY has declared Apple as makers of the BEST PC and Laptop. Nothing more to say really. (This probably explains the satisfied smile on rubalyat's face - when you're right, you're right on).


The magazine didn't declare anything. The survey was available to ANYONE that visited this website. Not just mag staff or even their dedicated readers. But anyone.

As a result, all it proves is that the vast majority of Mac owners are passionate about their platform. Passionate enough to take the time to fill out a survey to inform people how good they think their platform is. The vast majority of Windows-based PC owners wouldn't care to spend the time.


Andranos
4 December 2010
gone4good, if the pc authority didn't declare anything, then DJ got idea from where?? 'Cause it is impossible that Mac can beat PC. In fact, when i asked Mac user back there what is Mac advantages beside "Reliability" (Boriiinnngg...) They didn't answer anything else beside that.

I thought that the one who declared it is some kind of computer expert or something lol
rubaiyat
4 December 2010
Andranos nobody wants to talk to you.

As you can see in this thread (which you obviously haven't bothered to read) I am happy to debate this with almost anybody who is willing to make a case for or against.

Your cretinous level of "Mac is shit" makes it pointless. That, and your inability to grasp even simple concepts.

The avatar is obviously not me (boy you are thick). Since you only seem to do 2 things on your PC I gave you something to do it to. Maybe it would shut you up for a while.
Slatts
4 December 2010
rubaiyat wrote:
The avatar is obviously not me (boy you are thick).


Damn. Another bubble burst.

I was ready to forgive you anything.

:cry:


As for you Andranos, come up with something civil and constructive or you'll be getting a short holiday from the forum.

Nobody is interested in reading childish rants.
rubaiyat
4 December 2010
Slatts wrote:
Damn. Another bubble burst.


Heck I'd date myself, if it was me!

Then lay charges against myself. :)
rubaiyat
4 December 2010
Slatts

I have been toying with starting a dedicated PC vs Mac thread detailing in favor and against both (yes, I can argue both sides).

The thing that held me back is that I would want to do it the way we do it on the Mac, which is to actually illustrate the points, which would make it hefty.

The other thing is that it is a major job which I would not be able to finish before I have to go Interstate on Monday.

If the new PC & Tech Authority would like to build up a sensible tit for tat site or even specialised section in these forums. It could be quite fruitful.

We all have our opinions and experiences to bear on this subject, but it is hard to go fully into the details for multiple platforms and keep them current and verified. Collectively this can happen.

Several years ago there was a marvellous debate on a Photographic website about using Photoshop on both platforms. It was civil and informed, backed up by real world tests and ended up being productive for both sides. Mac users happily accepted PC hardware speed advantages at the time, and PC users happily accepted certain UI benefits on the Mac, so everyone was much wiser.

It wouldn't hurt to raise the debate out of the "Yo mutha sucks" level that it has often reached here. I wouldn't mind Ubuntu users bringing in their experience as well. It would be nice to have a bolt hole if things go sour on Mac or Windows.

Edited by rubaiyat: 4/12/2010 05:53:57 PM
Andranos
6 December 2010
Yeah, so people can start posting the real advantages other than reliability.

@Slatts Are you a team here or some kind of the developer of this site?? Well i don't mind if you give me short holiday though or you can even give me permanent holiday even for my IP. I'll show you what my program can do and i can prove to rubaiyat that i'm a real IT guy not a 5th grader who still make mistake on his spelling, and rubaiyat, i don't want to talk to you either, 'cause what you said is so boring and not even at my level.

So if anyone can give me a holiday, i dare you and i will gladly take it and i make sure to comeback only in few seconds (after i tried to login of course).

Oh btw Slatts, you should read the comments before this and look at my first comments okay?? After that, you should see what rubaiyat posted after my comment and tell me what you think.

'Cause what i said was "Anyway guys, i don't mean to insult Mac or anyone that support Mac, i just wanted to tell you guys that it depends on people needs."

Edited by andranos: 6/12/2010 02:22:23 AM

Edited by andranos: 6/12/2010 02:26:05 AM
Slatts
6 December 2010
I've just reread your and rubaiyats conversation.

rubaiyat deserves a kick in the bum for not being adult enough to ignoring your posts after the first interaction.

Andranos wrote:
So if anyone can give me a holiday, i dare you and i will gladly take it and i make sure to comeback only in few seconds (after i tried to login of course).


I wish you'd had the sense to edit that out.

see you in 5 days.


Edited by Slatts: 6/12/2010 10:30:39 PM
DJ...
9 December 2010
I'm all for 'adult' comparisons of operating systems, something from which we can all gain. One of the biggest battles though is the debate gets too easily sidetracked. All sides need to stay focussed on the point at hand and be willing to admit that their favourite could be improved under certain circumstances.

We also need to be able to come to some personal conclusions such as (in this aspect) my fav OS is "better", "worse", or the "difference doesn't bother me". For example I just reread some of the original article points about Windows Explorer and the Finder and (although I don't know what window resizing has to do with either of these programs) have just realised that Windows allows windows to be resized from any corner and edge, whereas MacOS only allows a window to be resized by the bottom right corner. Having used both OSs for decades this is something that has never really occurred to me as a point of difference worth debating. So to me, this "difference doesn't bother me". I see advantages to both, with MacOS you only have one choice and so you quickly and automatically use the bottom right corner to resize a window. In Windows I have to fiddle about sometimes because I missed the corner and can only change the width of the window. When window resizing works first time, I'm happy to have the flexibility, when it doesn't I hate having all the options and just want simplicity.

So what do others think, is this difference in resizing a window something that will make you change operating systems?
What about the differences in using Explorer versus Finder?

cheers
DJ...
iH8Macs
10 December 2010
OMG my mac has never crashed ghalalala >.<, trust me they do ._. . My brother has made a computer 1000 bucks less and like 1000 times better literally. Way more games, screen he bought can play with ps3 and then switch straight back to computer.Way more faster much more games and its actually really stylish and pretty! Way more features too and you know those icons that are at the bottom of your screen on a imac you can download a program and put them at the bottom but change the style of them! Plus hes never had a virus in his whole 2 years of using it. SUCK ON THAT D:<
TheMan
18 December 2010
I use both PC and Mac. PC for business, Mac for home. All the author of this article has really achieved is proving that he is incapable of researching and article prior to writing it. There are many pros and cons to each product, but the majority of the reasons listed in this article are poor examples, badly researched or non-existent. No doubt, some geek with a monitor tan will sit there and use this as his gospel to justify his use of PC or his meagre existence while he sits online playing games without realising there is a real world out there with real people, real friends, and real girls.

The irony of most PC users is that majority have never ventured outside of their sacred land of PC's and yet they are so quick to judge other OS's. Spend a year on Linux, OSX etc and you'll realise there is an existence outside of PC and that there are many good reasons to look at alternatives. At least most Mac, Ubuntu etc users have actually used more than one. Its a bit like arguing australia is the greatest country in the world when you've never travelled outside the country. There is a reason why very few switchers (less than 5% the last time I checked) go back to PC, if PC was that much better, the switchers would return in there hoards.

Perhaps Zara should spend more time researching and less time writing.
iphoney
20 December 2010
The problem with Microsoft Bots is they lie even to themselves.

"1 - Service packs don’t cost $199"
CORRECT! Microsoft's cost businesses MILLIONS in down time and costly fixes.
Microsoft kept me employed in PC jobs for half a decade, but when working for Apple I NEVER had to fix a defective update on a Mac. PC Bots just can't believe Apple could release new OSX versions every year or so. They're used to Microsoft changing NAMES and releasing defective 80's based code every couple.

"2 - No price premium for flashy design"
Yet another total MYTH by PC boosters. You pay for what you get. I've yet to see a competitively priced PC with all of the features and expandability of Macintosh. It's been shown time and time again, when you compare HONESTLY and ADD the features PCs LACK, but Macs HAVE, Macintosh is equal to or CHEAPER than PC's. PC makers long ago began to use the American Automotive Makers trick of ADVERTISING cheap stripped down models, then UPSELLING all the features and warranty.

"3 - Thousands of decent games"
We all know how IMPORTANT games are to the brats of the world, so PCs are great for games. But not nearly as capable as XBOX/PS3.
Besides any Mac for the past few years can boot Windows and play PC games...so?

"4 - Two mouse buttons"
OK you've GOT me on this one.
PCs DO ONLYhave 2 mouse buttons.
Mac's have had 5 for about 5 years now.
Sorry....

"5 - Broadband just works"
Have seen as many problems with PCs using junk routers/wifi or ISP issues as Macs. Blaming ISPs issues on standard-adhering Apple would be like blaming
Sony for bad Cable TV quality or cheap rented DVRs.
Cheap shot, nice try.

"6 - Custom-made systems"
We Mac users KNOW how important Clear Cases, Neon Lights, Liquid cooling systems, and fuzzy dice are to PC Hot Rodders.
Apple decided to be more like Ferrari and stick with pure performance and clean styling. VW Bugs outfitted with V8s and superchargers taller than the car was popular...back in the 70's.

"7 - Macs are months behind"
Yeah, dang Steve Jobs for DEVELOPING technology and not jumping on every Beta technology out there. We mac users envy that every PCs on the planet ships STOCK with 44x Blu-Ray Burners. Oh, they don't either?

"8 - Life beyond 1st January"
Talk about calling the Kettle Black
Notice NO mention of all the PC companies showing off their new products at CES Vegas in January, just beating up on Apple for going to MacWorld Expo in SF.
That's Rich...

"9 - Superior search facilities"
Yeah, Google search bar is SO much better in IE in Windows. Not.
Finder? How OLD is this article, that went out with OS9.

"10 - Safety in numbers"
Now they're picking and choosing which Monopoly is Good and which is Bad. Is ok for Microsoft to be the ONLY OS for them, but damn Apple for making both hardware and software. Don't forget this whole site is paid for by PC ads, Apple doesn't advertise. What side do you THINK they'll be on...do the numbers.

"11 - Sensible support costs"
Yeah, we know $149-$249 or so for AppleCare is WAY too much money for a PC user to get hardware and #1 rated phone support for a couple of years. They'd rather buy junk and swear at overseas phone agents with heavy accents when it breaks. When your PC company even comes close to the decade long 80%+ rating AppleCare has, come talk to me.

"12 - Microsoft’s on your team"
What kind of hallucinogens are your writers on. This is just ridiculous.
Jo
30 January 2011
PC authority say certain things about Apple but they are one of the 1st to bring their magazine to Ipad before either the Android or Windows Tablet versions.
Slatts
30 January 2011
Jo wrote:
PC authority say certain things about Apple but they are one of the 1st to bring their magazine to Ipad before either the Android or Windows Tablet versions.


Hi Jo, how about some such as and for examples?

I don't spose I'm the only one who would like to hear what these "certain things" are.

Links would do for me...

Jo
2 February 2011
Hey Slatts let me spell it out to you nice and slow, P C
A u t h o r i t y p u t t h e i r M a g o n I p a d b e f o r e a l l o t h e r T a b l e t O p e r a t i n g S y s t e m s.

This coming from a mag that states their are 32 reasons why PC 's are better than Apple Macs, so what they are really saying now is ummm we think the Ipad is umm ok. (but secretly behind closed doors the staff were saying at 75% market share quick guys we need to get on this Bandwagon) now did you get that Slatts? and the Certain things are the 32 reasons slatts did you also get that? or are you a bit dense?
petergaskin
2 February 2011
It makes excellent marketing sense to push your product where there is maximum demand. it does not mean that you necessarily agree with everything Apple does.
I am sure that if sales of Android based tablets dominated the market, then pc authority would have pushed out an Android version.
Also I am sure that PC Authority considered the relative stability of the IPAD. no good going to a product early in its design. its all about making lots of money!

Edited by petergaskin: 2/2/2011 08:26:24 PM
Slatts
2 February 2011
Jo wrote:
Hey Slatts let me spell it out to you nice and slow, P C
A u t h o r i t y p u t t h e i r M a g o n I p a d b e f o r e a l l o t h e r T a b l e t O p e r a t i n g S y s t e m s.

This coming from a mag that states their are 32 reasons why PC 's are better than Apple Macs, so what they are really saying now is ummm we think the Ipad is umm ok. (but secretly behind closed doors the staff were saying at 75% market share quick guys we need to get on this Bandwagon) now did you get that Slatts? and the Certain things are the 32 reasons slatts did you also get that? or are you a bit dense?


I guess your too clever for me Jo.

Oh wait! What petergaskin said.
rubaiyat
2 February 2011
Love watching the random spellers duking it out here.

Do any of you have any idea of which grammatical straws to grasp?

Chance says you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it right and you're not even hitting that.
Slatts
2 February 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
Love watching the random spellers duking it out here.

Do any of you have any idea of which grammatical straws to grasp?

Chance says you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it right and you're not even hitting that.


smart ass.

You could at least give me the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a typo.

.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
2 February 2011
But Slatts, "Mac users" don't make typos. :P
Slatts
2 February 2011
Whoa!

Stop the presses!

For your reference Rubaiyat.

more than enough; superfluously; overly: the hat is too big


More than enough; excessively: She worries too much.

Comments?

rubaiyat
3 February 2011
Slatts wrote:
You could at least give me the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a typo.



A very persistent typo.

Like most people who just don't know, you seem to think that anyone who does, is "a smart ass (sic)"
rubaiyat
3 February 2011
.:Cyb3rGlitch:. wrote:
But Slatts, "Mac users" don't make typos. :P


Maybe its just Mac users paid attention at school, …and aren't dumbed down enough to pass off as PC users.

Have you tried dialling a (Mac) friend when the questions get too hard?

You know, around the $5 mark.
gone4good
3 February 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
.:Cyb3rGlitch:. wrote:
But Slatts, "Mac users" don't make typos. :P


Maybe its just Mac users paid attention at school, …and aren't dumbed down enough to pass off as PC users.

Have you tried dialling a (Mac) friend when the questions get too hard?

You know, around the $5 mark.


That's where I went wrong! Perhaps I'd have finished my PHD already if I was a Mac user. I probably would have gotten better results all the way through Uni and have a higher paid job right now. Doh!
rubaiyat
3 February 2011
Aren't we lucky having such fools for PhDs.

What's the difference between knowledge and a degree?

If you don't know, you got the degree.
gone4good
3 February 2011
Ahh... another cheap shot.

"O mischief, thou art swift to enter in the thoughts of desperate men!"
Slatts
3 February 2011
Of course, the amusing part of this is that my usage was correct.

I'm still seeing no comment regarding that little fact.

Would it be 2 hard to admit you're wrong rubaiyat?

I wrote:
I guess your too clever for me Jo.


The original post sits there unedited for your perusal.

Get over yourself.
rubaiyat
3 February 2011
????

"I guess you're too clever for me Jo."

Not sure what you're trying to demonstrate from this.
Slatts
3 February 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
????

"I guess you're too clever for me Jo."

Not sure what you're trying to demonstrate from this.


Bugger.

I didn't even notice that.:oops:

Please accept my apology.

Once again, BUGGER!

rubaiyat
3 February 2011
Unfortunately I do notice. :(

Like very load bum notes in a karaoke bar. The participants take it as normal.

Still very load bum notes as far as I am concerned, and not being as drunk as everyone else gets, I really don't get how it is supposed to be enjoyable.
Slatts
3 February 2011

I'll try not to let it happen again.

rubaiyat
3 February 2011
I even find myself doing it because it is everywhere, newspapers, TV ads, billboards and expensive ad campaigns, let alone supposedly sub-edited published works.

It is so ubiquitous that it is becoming standard usage. Sad. Very sad.
Slatts
3 February 2011

The English language is alive and evolving.

When was the last time you used thee or thou in a sentence.

Surely thou protesteth too much.

Let's not return to color, colour.

We can only hope that the more annoying mutations prove to be nonviable.

Meanwhile, here. Knock your self out.

rubaiyat
3 February 2011
In my circle of devout brethren, thee, thou and thine are alive and well, as the English familiar.

However their usage doesn't confuse meaning as does randomly mixing up you, your, you're, yours and (perhaps the only evolutionary credible candidate) yous, along with their, there, they're, here, hear, heir, lose, loose, its, it's, heel, heal and many other self evidently different words and expressions.

They may be homonyms but they are not synonyms.

Color, behavior and neighbor I use, because they are rational developments.

In fact I am all for spelling reform. English's Achilles heel is its appalling spelling, which is a huge barrier to new speakers and students alike.

Edited by rubaiyat: 3/2/2011 11:48:53 PM
Slatts
3 February 2011

SMS is going to do to spelling what the calculator did to numeracy.

If you're pissed off now, hold on to your hat.
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
4 February 2011
Slatts wrote:

SMS is going to do to spelling what the calculator did to numeracy.

If you're pissed off now, hold on to your hat.

There's only so much you can do on a calculator without understanding what you're plugging into it.

I don't think either calculator or SMS have caused a tangible difference in numeracy/literacy. The education system and the general attitude in schools is where the blame lies.

But, we digress.
rubaiyat
4 February 2011
Don't have to hold onto my hat. I'm thoroughly pissed off with SMS.

Typical case of the software hindering when it supposedly "helps" because some geek can't tell the difference. Obvious though it may be to anyone with elementary education.

Innumeracy has been a real windfall to the neo-kleptocracy. A whole new economics has been built around hardly anyone knowing what is going on when they are being robbed blind.

Illiteracy is proving the same for democracy and knowledge, when both are whisked away who's to know?
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
4 February 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
Don't have to hold onto my hat. I'm thoroughly pissed off with SMS.

Typical case of the software hindering when it supposedly "helps" because some geek can't tell the difference. Obvious though it may be to anyone with elementary education.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
rubaiyat
4 February 2011
Sorry, I'm ranting over the auto-correction, entry feature on mobile phones.

Separate issue from SMS.
DJ...
18 February 2011
Well, to sort of get back on topic...

I had need today to delete a user on a Windows7 machine whose files were still needed by a new user. OK then obviously I have to pass ownership of the old user's files to the new user, down through the Properties of the appropriate folders. Having passed over ownership of the files to the new user I then deleted the old user, during which I was warned and given the option to have the files belonging to the old user saved on the desktop of the new user. This shouldn't matter as the old user no longer owns any files, right.

Lucky I chose the 'save to desktop' option because the old user still owned the files. So why does Windows give you the option to change ownership of files if the 'delete user' process ignores updated ownership credentials?

Of course if you experiment with this process on your Windows machine you will probably get a different result. That's one of the 'joys' of Windows - inconsistency that you don't find on a Mac.
alcor
29 April 2011
I am not a fanboy of Microsoft or Apple. I have supported personal computers since the 80's. To the new boys they did have PC's back then. I started with CPM, then DOS, Digital (now defunct), IBM, Sun OS, Linux, Windows, Mac OSX and a few others along the way. 32 reasons why PC's are better than Macs is an absolute joke. All OSes have there problems and wonderful features. But I use Mac to access all OSes using VMWare. It is the most stable. Next is Linux. Windows comes behind a couple of others. When you have to support people who use stuff, the answer is clear. Mac OSX delivers on ease of use; it is a great tool for complex computer stuff that people need to do in support. It doesn't let you down. With over 30 years in the industry Mac OSX is better than Windows. Instead of thinking up reasons why PC's are better than Macs, write some decent articles on PC's and Macs instead of pandering to the Apple haters. Who cares if Macs don't have heaps of games software, they should be playing on a games console. Serious work demands serious reliability and connectivity = Apple with Mac OSX.
Slatts
30 April 2011
alcor wrote:
Who cares if Macs don't have heaps of games software, they should be playing on a games console.


People who want lots of gaming software with an input device with a useful number of keys.

They care alcor.

And who are you to dictate what platform gamers should use anyway.

pompous prat.
rubaiyat
30 April 2011
Isn't it odd that the Mac was originally a brilliant computer for games and then Apple (Sculley) stupidly responded to all the ignorant taunts of the Mac haters, that it was only good for games, by making it hard for Mac programmers to make games on the Mac.

Now that it becomes apparent that PC users seem to do little else but play games on their computers, the taunt is reversed.

In a way I think that despite the fact that the Mac still has games, that commercially dumb decision may have been a blessing. Whilst PC users were busy rehearsing their 15 minutes of fame for their real world psychotic meltdown in a shopping mall, we got on with real work.

Concentrating on doing it well whilst wasting considerably less time doing so.
gone4good
30 April 2011
"rubaiyat" wrote:
Now that it becomes apparent that PC users seem to do little else but play games on their computers, the taunt is reversed.


I know you like to troll rubaiyat, but seriously?

Back to the topic...

What a lot of people don't realise is the importance that gaming has played in the development of all computers. Right now there are millions of people using high end systems as a work tool with hardware that was initially designed to cater to the PC gaming market. A lot of what is going into the workstation was tested and proven with PC games, that includes Apple's systems too.

Let's face it, the hardware platform is identical between an Apple branded and non-Apple branded computer - you just have far greater options with systems without the Apple logo.

rubaiyat
30 April 2011
gone4good

Not at all. That came out quite clearly in my attempt to get a reasonably priced PC workstation.

What was deemed good specs for the PC was nearly all based on the premise it would be used for gaming. The ridiculously high frame rates of the video cards recommended are practically useless for anything else other than gaming. Accuracy of color, sound and the user interface? What you talking about? Can't understand that bit, so skip it. No guarantee that the Chinese laundry basket of hardware would even work. Dell saw no issue with the sound not working on their proposed workstation. That's how natural stuff ups like that are on PCs.

The singular obsession with hardware drives everything, including your closing statement. No clue as to the system as a whole.

A friend of mine used to consult to multi-media studios back in the '90s. He would demonstrate the highly sophisticated UI interaction and visual quality that he was achieving. It drove him crazy that, desperate as the studios were to get the same results, they would consider all options except the one he was demonstrating, which was doing it on the Mac.

I encountered the same thing whilst consulting. I was bluntly told to lower my expectations to fit what was possible on the PC at the time. No reason was given for the anything but Apple blind prejudice. They didn't even register the enormous waste, delays and stuff-ups this caused. Even though inevitably, to get the work done and meet the immutable deadlines, they usually had to fall back on the older Macs that they refused to upgrade.

The truth is that there are many more options on the Mac, including using Windows if you are truly desperate (or ignorant), because those options are not simply hardware, mostly they are software which is quality driven on the Mac, not the price/kludge solutions on PCs.

The thing that has infuriated me most about the fact that we are in a Windows dominated world is how it has even impacted us on the Mac, despite our best efforts. The huge inertia, resistance to change and bad 'standards' that Microsoft has enforced has put us all back 10 years behind where we could have been.

How much time, effort and massive amounts of money was poured into the Millennium Bug debacle for example? A classic case of 'saving' money, then blowing way more 'fixing' the problems that should never have existed in the first place. Just one little peak on the tip of the PC iceberg which hides vastly more waste and stupidity out of sight.

I'm wasting my breath though on the won't look, and wouldn't know if it hit them in their face.
Slatts
30 April 2011
Yes, about that work station rubaiyat, a Dell Precision T3500?

Dell wrote:
Also Includes
Dell Precision T3500 Chassis with TPM
No Floppy Drive
Monitor Handling and Insurance Charges REL (Australia)/19FP
Dell Backup and Recovery Manager for Windows 7
Quick Reference Guide(English)
System Power Cord (ANZ)
Document SERI/EULA (English)
Mod Specs Info (Australia)
Intel(R) X58 Chipset (Tylersburg) - Nehalem Microarchitecture
Integrated Broadcom(R) 5761 Gigabit Ethernet Controller
Integrated High Definition Audio


What was the problem with the sound again?

rubaiyat
30 April 2011
Quote:
Dell Precision T3500 Chassis
Intel(R) Xeon(R) W3565 3.20GHz, 8M cache, 4.8 GT/s QPI, Turbo, HT, 4C
1 No Energy Smart
1 Dell Client System Update Factory Install
1 No Quick Reference Guide
1 End User License Agreement (English)
1 Intel(R) X58 Chipset (Tylersburg) - Nehalem Microarchitecture
1 Integrated Broadcom(R) 5761 Gigabit Ethernet Controller
1 Integrated High Definition Audio
1 ANZ Return
1 Shipping Box
1 Shipping Box Label (APCC)
1 Resource DVD for Precision
1 Minitower Orientation without 1394 Port
1 4GB (2x2GB) DDR3 SDRAM Memory, 1333MHz,ECC
1 No Floppy Drive 1
1TB SATA (7200RPM) Hard Disk Drive
1 SATA Controller Information (Info Tied with SATA HDD)
1 Dell Precision T3500 Chassis with TPM
1 All SATA HDD without RAID. Must have 1 HDDs in total.
1 Dell Precision Heatsink
1 Windows Live Essentials
1 16X max SATA DVD+/-RW with Dual Layer Write Capabilities
1 PowerDVD 9.5 - Factory Install Software
1 CyberLink PowerDVD(TM) 9.5 Media Kit
1 Roxio Creator Starter Software Media kit
1 Roxio Creator Starter- Factory Install Software
1 System Power Cord (ANZ)
1 ProSupport Service Label
1 Integration Information
1 Order Ready ProSupport Tag
1 No Modem Cable
1 No Monitor
1 For Info Only: No Monitor
1 2GB NVIDIA Quadro 4000,Dual Monitor,2DP & 1DVI,Dell Precision
1 Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic
1 Dell(TM) AX210 (2.0) Speakers
1 No Modem
1 Dell (TM) 1520 Wireless Network Card (Full Height)
1 No Mouse
1 No Keyboard
1 Windows(R) 7 Label
1 Windows(R) 7 Professional COA Label
1 Windows(R) 7 QFE
1 Genuine Windows(R) 7 Professional 64 bit (English)
1 For Info Only: Genuine Windows(R) 7 Professional 64bit (English)
1 Windows(R) 7 Professional 64 bit DVD Media (English)
1 Dell Backup and Recovery Manager for Windows 7
1 Trend Micro Worry-Free Business Security Service,MUI
1 Trend Micro Worry-Free Business Security Service,MUI,36 Months
1 No Installation Service Required
1 Technical Support
1 SI,EMEA,MOD,DELL READY
1 SI,MOD,INFO,CSR,ELIGIBLE
1 Main Configuration Box Label
1 APCC Order Ready for Main Config Box Label
1 Integration Information
1 BIOS Utilities Set-Up (EUP Enable)
1 Limited Warranty: Extended Year 2 - 3 (NBD)
GST Total 2,900.00

1 Logitech Wireless Combo MK260
GST Total 49.01

1 Dell(TM) U2711 27" Ultrasharp Wide Screen Monitor ANZ
1 ANZ Return
1 Standard Telephone Technical Support (Monday - Friday, 8am To 8pm, EST)
1 # Future Technical Support
1 3 Years Premium Panel Warranty, Advance Exchange (Next Business Day)
1 Standard Warranty
1 # Year 2 to 3 Premium Panel Warranty, Advance Exchange (Next Business Day)
1 Monitor Handling & Insurance
Charges GST Total 799.00

Grand GST Total $3,748.01



According to the Dell representative, the network card and audio clashed.

I didn't choose the individual cards, he did. I just gave him the outcome specs. Drive the high-res monitor(s) with provision for multiple drives.
Slatts
30 April 2011

What I read was that it has integrated gigabit Ethernet and integrated high definition sound on the motherboard.

I can't imagine how it may have happened, but perhaps you confused the poor Dell bloke...?

rubaiyat
30 April 2011
Possibly.

He couldn't imagine what I would do with an expensive computer not built for gaming...?
Slatts
30 April 2011

But we're happy now that the computer in question is capable of HD sound and gigabit Ethernet out of the box?

gone4good
30 April 2011
To be honest rubiayat, I couldn't really be bothered reading another round of generalisations any more so I didn't read all of your post. I got the gist of it though.

But you completely missed the point of my post. Did I mention Windows at all? I wasn't comparing Windows to OSX. I was simply stating that a lot of the high end hardware Mac users are enjoying is directly correlated to PC gaming.

When it comes to options, you can't be serious in trying to compare platforms? Essentially, they are almost the same, except there are more options. To say otherwise is just ludicrous. You can have a PC for $500 or one for $5000 depending on what your needs/wants are.

The DELL configuration....

Are you trying to configure a Mac Pro equivalent? If so, you'll need to take out the expensive Quattro 4000 and the Soundblaster Xi-Fi. A base model Mac Pro doesn't have anything near that level of tech. You'll need to select a lower end graphics card and go with the on-board HD audio.

Your mistake here is that you were actually wanting advice on a high end system from DELL staff. Don't expect much. Seek out a consultant for answers. For example, anyone selecting a Quattro 4000 wouldn't want to be playing games - it's not for games. The Quattro cards are popular with architects and video producers.



Edited by gone4good: 30/4/2011 07:13:03 PM
rubaiyat
1 May 2011
gone4good wrote:
For example, anyone selecting a Quattro 4000 wouldn't want to be playing games - it's not for games. The Quattro cards are popular with architects and video producers.


Would have helped to read my post. That was exactly the point, I and many designers like me do not want a games machine.

Macs are workstations.

Oh, and they do a heck of lot else besides, without modification.

What exactly is it I am supposed to be generalising about?

I've been studying a wide range of PC magazines looking for build options and to see what's recommended.

It is nice to see that finally the obsession with viruses, trojans, spyware, adware and computer slowdowns is off the front pages. But when you look at what they still obsess over, it is games, games, games and more games with an occasional media server (why this is a specialty computer has me stumped) and the obsession of hardware specs with hardly a mention anywhere of what to do with all this.

Is it all just an Airfix kit to show your train spotting friends? ...oh, and play endless games on?

Edited by rubaiyat: 1/5/2011 06:24:05 PM
Slatts
1 May 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
Macs are workstations.

Oh, and they do a heck of lot else besides, without modification.


Talk about making a virtue of a handicap.:lol:

You really need to get over your self rubaiyat.

PC workstations are workstations.

They also are capable of lots more beside.

They can also be more easily modified to cover even more ground.

This just looks like an exercise in getting in the last word as usual.

If you don't like someones answer, you just move the goalpost and push on through.

Wear the bastards down hey?:-k

Oh, and by the way, games are what set the pace of development.

Hardware development is all about keeping up with games.

Without games, do you think the i5 or i7 processor in your mac would have been developed so soon?

Why do you think mac changed to Intel?


Edited by Slatts: 1/5/2011 07:15:09 PM
gone4good
1 May 2011
I don't know why I'm responding to this, but I am (you'd think I'd have better things to do).

Where are all these magazines obsessed with games, rubaiyat? From my count all of the major PC based publications in Australia only have a few pages on games. Sure, there are some specialist mags dedicated to games, but what do you expect from an industry worth more than $15bil a year?

Are you talking about using game performance to test hardware? That's a no brainer. Games will just about bring any system to its knees so it makes for a great test of graphics capability and number-crunching performance.

"rubaiyat" wrote:
Macs are workstations.


Yes and so is a PC, if you want it to be. I don't see your point here. For example, Apple don't even offer a Quattro line of video cards for the Mac Pro. Not to mention all the other options such as the Matrox range of cards. My point was that you have those options and more with a PC. You aren't limited to what a particular company decides as to how you should be using your system. If you want a workstation, get a workstation. If you want a gaming system, get a gaming system. If you want a system that can do both, you can get that too.

This isn't a point worth discussing as it's pointless to do so. There are many benefits to owning a Mac, options, however isn't one of them.
rubaiyat
2 May 2011
Slatts wrote:
PC workstations are workstations.


And are not cheap when they start matching or topping the hardware that comes standard in a Mac.

Quote:
Oh, and by the way, games are what set the pace of development.


And there I was thinking it was pornography.

Quote:
Why do you think mac changed to Intel?


Because Dilbert was inspired by Motorola.

These discussions will jump to a whole new level come Wednesday.
rubaiyat
2 May 2011
gone4good wrote:
Where are all these magazines obsessed with games, rubaiyat?


APC for a start, just because I've been thumbing through a stack. You don't have to have them addressing games explicitly. Virtually all references or reviews address gaming as if it were the raison d'etre for owning a computer.

You won't have me arguing against the call for Apple to offer a headless Mac. The forums have been full of Mac users demanding we get the same choices we used to have prior to the matrix of 4 that Steve Jobs introduced in 1999, later changed to 5 then 6 with the iPhone and iPad.

One thing you learn as a Mac user is to live with what you've got. Because that's it, and its pretty darn good, if not perfect.

The alternative is a Hackintosh, which introduces all the same problems that PC users have.

Apple makes their own corporate decisions which will be only likely to change if people stop buying their products in droves, which is not likely to happen any day soon.
rubaiyat
2 May 2011
blockcentre wrote:
No, it's faster. Benchmark tests of both technologies conducted prove this. I don't need to test the standard myself to know it's faster as others have done this for me. Even at the last MacWorld they concluded that USB3 will outperform FireWire 800.


Sorry to bring this one up again, but it demonstrates the old problem of accepting untested assertions as if they were real.

The truth comes out eventually, but given the 3 minute memory of those involved, its on to the next Product on Paper (can I copyright that?).

I brought this up because I now have a couple of USB 3.0 drives simply because the price matched or bettered older USB 2.0 drives. But they are hardly faster than my FW800 drives, in fact for protracted transfers of large numbers of small files they still appear slower.

So off I went looking for any real world tests and look what I found:

1. The Product on Paper

2. The Real World 1

3. The Real World 2

This reveals the repeated parting of the ways here. What we experience in real life, and what we are "s'posed ta".

It stands out like dog's balls, the different world views of PC users and Mac users. Clearly demonstrated in magazines and books for both.

I can not help but notice how PC users just love words and lists, whilst Mac users love visual demonstration. Also that Mac magazines really spend most of their space on getting things done, whilst the PC magazines mostly show objects, with only the worst visualisation of anything else.

Remarkably, given the vast amounts of text PC users throw at trying to explain the unexplainable, they seem to demonstrate a poor grasp of writing as well.

Edited by rubaiyat: 2/5/2011 12:48:50 PM
GoinAum
4 May 2011
Sweet Jesus, where do I even START with this ridiculous article. I feel like the writer is in his early 20s and just started computing like 3 years ago honestly. 1. Service packs don't cost $199. They MIGHT cost $99. How much did you pay for that original copy of Windows if you bought it legally? OH, did you buy the hefty version, like the version of Windows 7 that is so advanced it allows you to do a remote login and use BOTH monitors??? lol That one will cost you upward of $499. That's 5 'service packs' as you call them right there... Do you do development for your OS? Oh, well for the full blown kit on Windows you'll spend $1600 for that. And on Mac you will cough up a whopping $0. That's right, just hard drive space...
2. Yes, you get flashy design. But what you're really paying for is a computer that WORKS. I run a digital audio studio, and do you know how much time and money I've saved on "blue screens of death" being non-existent? There's a reason there's no "uptime" command on a Windows machine, seriously.
3. Games? If you're worried about toys, go buy a 360 or a ps3. Seriously. Disk in - and go. Nothing else to worry about for less than $300. No argument here.
4. Magic Mouse has two buttons, and all apps have the option of using the second button on their interface. This is an old argument. You can go which way you want so it's a non-issue. I use my right button ALL THE TIME.
5. Broadband just works? Come on dude. Most people I know have a heterogeneous environment, and have no issues with mac or pc on any type of router. If it gives off DHCP, you're golden. If not, and there's an issue, it's because of your provider, not mac. This issue is made up.
6. Custom made systems: Do you want a computer that works, or do you want to play with parts? That's the question here. My Mac Pro has plenty of room to grow where I need it to. Myself, I'm more into NOT losing money and having my machines work when I need them to.
7. Macs are months behind? lol What are you doing that those piddly increases we get in speed at the top of the barrel are really worth it? And once again, get a brand new architecture machine from parts, build it, and tell me how many issues you find that you can't get worked out. I've been there plenty of times, trust me.

Life beyond first of Jan? That's just silly. Guess what? Apple is a hardware company, and that's when people buy hardware. MS isn't even really in the same arena that way, but they certainly do their share of silly advertising. Tell me, how misleading to the average computer user, are those "cloud" ads from MS right now? They do a bunch of tasks completely unrelated to the cloud, to get people to think their Azure platform is "cool". How is this any different? It's even worse, because it's misleading.

I'm getting tired of this, so I'm going to end with the #1 reason why everyone needs a mac instead of a pc.
When's the last time a process (a running application) got out of hand on a PC, and never came under control, taking the whole machine down with it, and quite possibly some of your data. Oh, yesterday did you say? lol Yes, that's because of the way Windows works with processes. The processes have the power, not Windows, or the user. If a process goes renegade, it's just tough. Now, same question, on the Mac side. OH WAIT!!! KILL on Mac actually works. Because I, through the OS, have the power. The app doesn't. An app causes me issues, I say "KILL", and it is done. Back to my work, no rebooting or wondering what damage has been caused. That ALONE my friend, is reason enough not to trust any Windows POS, in my 20-some years of being an IT professional.
gone4good
4 May 2011
Rubaiyat, without going into all the details of your previous post (not having the opportunity to read the whole post that you quoted), it looks like you're comparing manufacturer claims, benchmarking and real-world tests?

Manufacturer claims are rubbish. For example there's a lot of hype surrounding Intel's latest connectivity (Thunderbird? Thunderbolt?) but nothing to connect it with yet. Sure it will be fast, but we won't know what that translates to until someone gets hold of a device, connects it and benchmarks it.

What do you think the benchmarks run by magazines are? They take a piece of hardware, they run multiple tests that the user may perform and record the results. When testing the performance of a computer system it's necessary to push that system to its limits right? How better to do that than a gaming benchmark. The latest games will bring a computer to its knees.

You watch Top Gear? When they test drive the latest Ferrari, do they just check that the blinkers work and the stereo sound is clear or do they also fang it around a track to see how it handles the pressure? It's the same process that magazines go through when testing a computer. They take the machine and run multiple benchmark tests - gaming, video encoding, audio encoding, compression, drive transfer speeds, etc. The benchmarks are based on the exact same applications that you and I might use.

They do this because it isn't possible for us to walk into a store, install multiple applications on several computers, run them through the drills and compare the results.

So when a magazine runs benchmark tests on two different computers and posts their results you'll know which performs better. This is a concept that a lot of Mac owners don't seem to understand. If the latest Mac gets benchmarked and the results aren't favourable compared to the competition, it usually results with the toys being thrown out of the pram by the Mac fanbois.
rubaiyat
4 May 2011
gone4good I understand what benchtesting is but the reality is that despite all the vehement assertions of PC users to the contrary, USB 2.0 was a dog compared with even FW400 and USB 3.0 looks a bit better than FW800 in some cases and worse in others.

Now that is all moot because Thunderbolt does lift the game dramatically.

I freely admit that with Thunderbolt we are back to future speculating. But in this case I have greater confidence of:

1 Its unifying interface, it will accept all standards for drive, monitor and networking connectivity
2 Potential and real world speeds will be dramatically faster because there is so much of a speed bump and room to grow
3 It works equally well up and down stream
4 It is based on externalising a known standard, PCI Express

Now to the core of this debate.

Apple has just released the latest iMacs as predicted with a dramatic price cut.

The main features are: all now have have Quad Core Intel Sandy Bridge i5 minimum, with i7 in the top models, all have 1 or 2 Thunderbolt ports supporting up to 3 high res monitors (including the built in), the built in FaceTime camera is now hires, they now come with AMD Radeon 6750M, 6770M or 6970M graphics cards and from 4 to 16 Gb RAM. The high end models can have both SSD and spinning HDs together.

The full option matrix is here.

As usual I get some of the things I expected, a couple of surprises, and some disappointments that their upgrades and price cuts were not aggressive enough.

So now my target computer is:

27" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i5
2560 x 1440 resolution
4GB (two 2GB) memory
1TB hard drive1
AMD Radeon HD 6770M with 512MB
Wireless Touch Magic Mouse or Wireless Magic Trackpad
Wireless keyboard/Full wired keyboard
4 USB 2.0
2 Thunderbolt
1 Firewire 800
1 Gigabit ethernet
1 HiRes Facetime camera and microphone
Inbuilt hifi speakers
32/64bit Mac OSX 10.6 (no consumer level handicaps apply)

A$1,949 minus usual discount = A$1,849 or less.

Plus A$268, or less, 3 year AppleCare warranty with bottomless over telephone support for 3 years.

Expected total cost A$2100 or less.


For better or worse that is what any PC I will consider must measure up against. Ignoring all the advantages of Mac OSX and the suite of actually usable software that comes with the computer. I also expect silent operation to match the iMacs which is one of the prime reasons, including the hires display, that I can work on it for such long hours without fatigue.

If we take up the prospect of a PC to beat these specifications, then it needs to meet all the features or offer sufficient compensating features and include real world costs of assembly, testing and support. The almost certain poor PC finish and overall design will be a strike against it which I expect should be reflected in the price. As will be any hardware conflicts and uncertainties.

Edited by rubaiyat: 4/5/2011 11:54:04 AM
rubaiyat
4 May 2011
For anyone who thinks I don't have a real grasp on the differences, this is as I see it:

Mac

Pros
Compact
Includes virtually all features you need built in
Form Factors are usually high quality and innovative
Extremely easy upgradability in Mac Pro, except for cpu
Virtually silent
Sleep mode uses very little power
High quality finish both in hardware and software
Best support on total unit and software available
Can try before you buy
Very little uncertainty as to whether it works and does the job
No conflicts
Fast
Innovative new Thunderbolt port
Excellent 64bit full featured OS
Faster OS upgrade cycle
Fast boot up
Secure
Malware free
Excellent included software and OS features
Greater attention to detail and usability
Superb phone support, available most hours
Superb web support
Good value
Requires practically no maintenance or support
Server software simple to maintain and does not require payment per seat

Cons
Limited expandability
Limited range of form factors
Extremely limited upgradeability after purchase (for most options, except the Mac Pro, forget it)
Difficult hardware upgradability in iMac and Mac mini, except for RAM
Mac Pro extremely poor value
No Blu-Ray option except via external drive (Mac Pro is exception)
Flash is now a user installable option
Software is much more tightly tied to hardware and OS
Requires adaptors for Thunderbolt port
Uses mobile grade GPUs in iMac and Mac mini
On-site repairs are available but not necessarily speedy (my experience 1 day to 3 weeks)
Base configuration is comparatively expensive

PC

Pros
Wide variety of form factors
Wide price range
Wide choice of hardware
Can build from cheap basic to extremely powerful configurations
Much easier and practical to upgrade older hardware
Widely supported
Software and OS is much more backwardly compatible

Cons
Mostly cheap looking, flimsy materials and comparatively heavy or bulky
Most configurations are a tangle of mismatched external attachments and clip ons
Most encumbered by legacy hardware support
Most are noisy, hot and power hungry
Can be more expensive
Mostly can't try before buy
Higher failure rate
Hardware may or may not work, conflict or lack basic features
Insecure without IT support
Vulnerable to malware
Slow and belated OS upgrades
Slower boot up
Low quality included software
Poor/No support
Risk is thrown back on user
Value/Quality is highly variable
Requires more maintenance and support
Confusing matrix of OS/software versions
Server software complex & requires payment per seat

Edited by rubaiyat: 4/5/2011 03:20:08 PM
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
4 May 2011
No one is going to design a Mac for you rubaiyat. We've been through this. Your needs reflect the Mac exactly, you will not be happy with anything else.
rubaiyat
4 May 2011
Wasn't asking you to .:Cyb3rGlitch:.

But you are wrong, the Mac does not fit my needs perfectly.

I would prefer expandability and upgradability but not at the expense of poor quality finishes, compatibility and user problems, user risk and massive increase in cost.

Even if cost was no object, I have yet to see a well designed, good finish PC, let alone one that addresses my principle needs of high quality screen with quiet, reliable, secure operation. Those are not unreasonable specifications.
rubaiyat
4 May 2011
I can't dictate to Apple, but if I could this is what I would demand:

1. iMacs accessible from the rear not the front, like they used to be with the white iMacs. At one stroke this would give direct access to drives, cards and speakers.

2. iMacs and Mac minis with no RAM so that the user could buy and install what they want, without sacrificing existing purchases

3. Replaceable CPUs

4. Replaceable alternate GPUs in all iMacs

5. Alternate optical drives such as Blu-ray

6. Wireless extended keyboards

7. Basic Thunderbolt adaptors for monitors and drives

8. A headless Mac like the old Mac IIci

9. That they pull their finger out on the Mac Pro and either charge what it is worth or build for what they charge

10. A low profile entertainment unit size Mac mini with a single simple removable panel to get internal access

Now where can I build a Hackintosh that meets any of these needs but isn't just a Frankentosh?

The problem is as much that the PC manufacturers don't build to the quality and specs of a Mac as much as that Apple doesn't build to the hardware specs of the PC. Hobson's choice.

Oh and I forgot. The option of a non-glossy screen for us poor all suffering Pros who work with images.

Edited by rubaiyat: 4/5/2011 05:15:10 PM
rubaiyat
5 May 2011
Further details on the new iMacs, with some interesting unannounced extras and an odd omission (SATA II instead of the SATA III in MacBook Pros):

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2384920,00.asp

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/05/newest-imacs-have-removable-gpu-ambient-light-sensor.ars?comments=1#comments-bar

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac-Intel-21-5-Inch-EMC-2428-Teardown/5485/1
amcmo
6 May 2011
Rubaiyat,

You forgot one very top option on the iMac.

SSD, with the O/S and Apple Apps pre-installed in addition to the standard 1Tb drive for data.. The Z68 chipset they use is capable of using the SSD as a cache for the hard drive.

Z68 Chipset that no-one else has yet - Who said Apple were one gen behind PC's???

I'm SERIOUSLY considering putting the i7 3.4 on my desk instead of the Quad core PC that currently reside there.

Thunderbird already has major players rushing to put out external drives etc. It is/will be a game changer.

I run video production using the PC, with eSata for external scratch discs and moving data around. A Thunderbird drive would be Heaven!
rubaiyat
6 May 2011
amcmo I had mentioned that in my first post on the new iMacs.

I'm not sure about being able to use the SSD to cache the regular HD. I've heard it both ways that it potentially can, but in practice may not.

Until Apple confirms that it can, or issues a firmware update if it can't, I'll hold back on that.

One issue is that the standard SSD from Apple is huge and expensive. The alternative is to install it yourself, but I've seen enough open iMacs to know you had better have a can of clean air available to ensure you ensure a clean screen reinstall.

Not something I'd suggest everyone tackles.

BTW

CNet's review was one of those typical twisted reviews to make the PCs look not so bad.

They used the top of the line 27" iMac, falsely called it the base model, and put it up against other lower spec All-In-One PCs with smaller, poorer quality screens and slower processors so they could say it was more expensive.

Laughably they also pitched it up against a "cheaper" Dell XPS 8300 desktop, that had no monitor! And apparently expense was no issue for the under-performing, ridiculously priced Sony Vaio.

Despite the somewhat rigged "comparison" shopping, the iMac beat the in reality much more expensive Dell in all but one (3D) test, really outclassed the not much cheaper All-In-One HP TouchSmart 610q 1065qd and way outclassed the much more expensive Sony Vaio L21SFX all in one in all categories.

The result? The iMac got a luke warm recommendation as a "vanity" computer.

Edited by rubaiyat: 6/5/2011 06:19:41 PM
gone4good
6 May 2011
amcmo

If you want a new iMac, buy it. You don't need to justify it here. I probably don't speak for everyone, however I can safely say most won't care what you buy. You can spend your money however you want.

I tried on a new pair of ASICS runners today. Really, really comfortable, had gel support plus were made of mesh to help with cooling. I'll probably get them and put them on my shoe rack. Now before you call me bias, the other runners I have on my shoe rack are NIKE and ADIDAS.

johnpall
6 May 2011
@gone4good can you do as your name suggests?
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
6 May 2011
johnpall wrote:
@gone4good can you do as your name suggests?

I see you have nothing of value to add to this thread.
rubaiyat
6 May 2011
gone4good This post has gone on for so long (reaching close to 3/4 million views) you seem to have forgotten what the topic is.

Just in case you can't see it, due to the miserable viewable area left in most Windows desktops, it is "32-Reasons-why-PCs-are-Better-than-Macs".
amcmo
6 May 2011
Gone4good,

I don't need to justify anything I do, and especially not to someone like you who seems hell bent on putting down anything Apple.

Having seen the specs, read several first tests, this is an Apple that I believe might be well worth putting on my desk. I've built the PC's that go on my desk for the past 6 years, not being happy with anything from the manufacturers. We used to be an all Dell house (high notebook failure rate), then some Compaq's (short lived PSU's.If I decide to buy the mack it will be because I believe it to be the best replacement for my current PC, based on an unbiased evaluation.

rubaiyat

Sorry, missed the earlier comment on the SSD, been out of town and quick scanned the posts.

On the SSD, at present I understand it comes with the OS and Apple apps installed on it. As you point out conflicting advice on the use as a HD cache. If it's not currently enabled, I'd anticipate a firmware/software update, however it may be dependent on availability of a particular version of Intel SSD. We import and sell another brand of SSD, must have a chat with the factory on their take on the cache scenario. Not that the current lack of it would deter me from making a decision.

I agree with the comments on the lack of an even handed approach with magazine tests, with this mag having been guilty of some prime examples.
amcmo
6 May 2011
32 Reasons Why PC's are better than Macs.

Even though a committed PC user when this article first appeared in PCA, I felt that the article was based on bias and did not reflect reality even then (maybe 10-12 reasons why at that time). The title doesn't stand up to any open review today, it's a very even field.
rubaiyat
6 May 2011
amcmo I've found this site which suggests late firmware changes may have indeed unlocked SATA III and the SSD caching. Not yet 100% confirmed, but it is looking positive.
johnpall
7 May 2011
Hey CyberGlitch(sounds better than your nonsensical name) i'm a value added kind of guy, gone4good has gone on too long he's starting to repeat himself.
rubaiyat
7 May 2011
You have to admit though that, repetition or not, its kind of sulky.

Not really an argument for anything, just a kind of "Oh yeah? Look I bought some shoes!"
rubaiyat
7 May 2011
More news on the iMac SSD and SATA III:

First the unbiased version, because it is from a PC magazine:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9216452/Apple_s_iMac_MacBook_Pro_lines_are_SSD_friendly

Then the biased version, because it is from a Mac magazine:

http://www.macworld.com/article/159728/2011/05/imac_macbookpro_ssd.html
amcmo
7 May 2011
Good to see that both the unbiased PC fanatics and the biased Apple Fanbois can to exactly the same conclusion :lol:
gone4good
8 May 2011
@amcmo

If you don't feel the need to justify, then why do it with every post? Just make your point. Or are you looking for someone to say "Yeah, great idea amcmo! You should definitely get that iMac for your desk!".

For someone who states they do not have a bias towards one platform over another, you seem to only post in threads based on Apple or Google (with the exception of the Kogan tab thread). You flew into the Kogan 7 inch Tab thread to lambaste a device that hasn't even been reviewed while reminding everyone how much better an iPad is. If that's not a fanboy then I don't' know what is.

It's ok if you really, really like Apple hardware. A lot of people do. The rest of us don't care either way.

With regards to the new range of iMac's - excellent machines. I've always said that the iMac is the best value hardware that Apple makes. I've also said that it's clearly the best all-in-one out there. For anyone who wants an all-in-one, it's ideal.

However I've also stated that the all-in-one design isn't for me. It's too limited. But that's my opinion.

You might also want to know that Apple didn't have the Z68 first. Gigabyte, ASUS, MSI and others have had the Z68 chipset motherboards available since release date. It's just not something that PC owners bleat on about. But you are right in regards to the major manufacturers (DELL, HP, Lenovo, etc) - Apple has definitely caught up.

Thunderbolt isn't an exclusive either. It's available to other manufacturers as well. They just haven't adopted it yet. I can only speculate as to why - perhaps the lack of supported devices? As current (as far as I have read - correct me if I'm wrong), there are only two manufacturers that have announced Thunderbolt drives and both are a while off yet. The uptake of USB3 took a while as well which was a result of supported devices. Now there's lots of them and it's almost impossible to buy a motherboard without it. Might be the same for Thunderbolt?

@rubaiyat

Don't tell me you can't take a joke? I forgot that winning interweb arguments is serious business for you. The shoes comment was having a go at amcmo and his incessant need to remind everyone of how he isn't bias towards one platform over another. It's about as relevant as my shoes comment.

Yes I do know what the thread topic is. However it isn't "32 reasons why PCs are Better than iMac's". I personally think it's a pointless argument, a massive waste of time and really shameful that PC&TA are adding fuel to this ridiculous debate just to score some website traffic. It's cheap tabloid stuff.

@johnpall

Ooohhh.. aren't you sweet? It's so nice to have fans. Unfortunately you didn't use the magic word so therefore I couldn't possibly honour your request.


Edited by gone4good: 8/5/2011 07:52:44 AM
rubaiyat
8 May 2011
gone4good Oh I can most definitely take a joke, the problem is I think you can't tell one.

Repeated pointless assertions of 'everyone has different tastes' and 'personally I don't like vegetables', only reinforces the appearance of ingrained prejudices arrived at through never trying anything else.

Or ever giving it any serious thought, because "everyone just knows!"

rubaiyat
8 May 2011
gone4good wrote:
Gigabyte, ASUS, MSI and others have had the Z68 chipset motherboards available since release date. It's just not something that PC owners bleat on about.


Because the release date is 11 May 2011.

Apple has delivered the Z68 chipset on the 3 May 2011.

How we twist things gone4good. Eh?

Edited by rubaiyat: 8/5/2011 01:08:17 PM
amcmo
9 May 2011
Gone4Good,

Yes I flew into the Kogan after the PC&A press release/advertisement for what was/still is a demonstrably inferior piece of kit. Don't need a test to prove that. Some want to pay the lowest price possible without any consideration of performance/quality - good on them, I still consider it to be false economy.

If I didn't get the Android/MS fanbois constantly trashing me as an Apple fanbois just because I don't swoon over every new Android tablet vapourware press release (ok, they are FINALLY arriving this month and still look more like iPad1's to me), I would not need to bother pointing out that we're a multiple platform house and therefore (presumably) a litle more open minded and in a position to make valid comparison.

Comment on Google, when the Android/Google fans consistely attack any post that doesn't go gaga over the latest release, it helps to point out that the sacred cow Google is one of the more consistent data/privacy theft offenders.

As Rubaiyat has already responded, got your dates wrong on the relase of Z68.

Thunderbolt was exclusive to Apple on it's release, for the simple reason that they worked with Intel on this and had all the hardware months before it was even confirmed by Intel.

Don't need you or anyone to tell me to get an iMac or otherwise. Simply made the statement that, with the latest release here was a product I would seriously consider changing to. Is one allowed to make that statement? Sometime in the next month I'll decide for myself whether to build a new Z68 PC for my desk or get an iMac. Like you, one of my concerns is that lack of easy ability to stuff more into the box.

Oh, one final point, yes I have posted on other threads, guess because it's not Android/Apple related, just doesn't get noticed:d

Edited by amcmo: 9/5/2011 11:42:25 AM
gone4good
9 May 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
gone4good wrote:
Gigabyte, ASUS, MSI and others have had the Z68 chipset motherboards available since release date. It's just not something that PC owners bleat on about.


Because the release date is 11 May 2011.

Apple has delivered the Z68 chipset on the 3 May 2011.

How we twist things gone4good. Eh?

Edited by rubaiyat: 8/5/2011 01:08:17 PM


That's the official release date by Intel when the other major manufacturers (DELL, HP, ACER, etc) can release systems with the Z68. Yes Apple did trump the other majors and good for them.

That's not the same date as when the Z68 chipset motherboards became available. A few motherboard manufacturers have had boards with the Z68 available since the end of April. So it's not really an exclusive for Apple. It goes a long way to support Apple's rise in the marketplace when Intel let them launch earlier than the other majors. As I posted earlier the more telling point is that now Apple isn't always at least a generation behind like they have been in the past. They have caught up (with the Macbook and iMac at least). That's significant.

I just don't really understand how the chipset benefits the iMac as I can't see how it can take advantage of most of them.

From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong)...

To make use of the SSD caching, ideally you would have three drives - a primary SSD for your OS and common applications, a large drive for other apps and file storage, plus another small SSD (40GB will do) to be the cache for your large drive. Can an iMac fit 3 HDD's? If it can fit two SSD's, you might be able to use the Thunderbolt option for a large drive? Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way.

The other major with the Z68 has to do with overclocking the GPU. I can't imagine that being something an iMac user would have access to?

It would be ideal if Apple refreshed the Mac Pro with this chipset. It seems like a waste with the iMac. Offer a low-end i5/i7 on Z68 with multiple drives and GPU overclocking capability plus a high end Sandy Bridge Xeon with the C200 chipset.


amcmo
9 May 2011
I totally agree the Mac Pro should be re-done to use the Z68, and bringing the price down to a more competitive level as Apple have achieved with the iMac, but then can they automate and miniaturize as effectively to produce the Pro.

A Z68 Pro at a reasonable price would be easier to justify with it's expandability. (Make a very acceptable dual boot or Parallels system as an additional bonus).

The iMac is still a very useable product for video editing (not sure about ability to use a DVI input 2nd monitor with any adapter from Thunderbolt?) from the specs and magazine tests to date.

The SSD works well just as an o/s and app drive.

As we sell SSD's we've just installed one in our in house MacBook Pro. (2 reasons, test our latest SSD offering and the user of the MacBook is a clutz with a history of screwed notebook hard drives) 17-18 Seconds boot and load Photoshop which is pretty hot. I know, we need to do a similar test on a Win machine, but don't expect as short boot/load time.

iMac should work just fine with SSD / single HD in the caching mode. Would just need an external 1-2TB Thunderbolt scratch drive for the video work as USB2 is not up to it. Our current rigs use internal scratch disks and USB3/eSata for file transfers.

rubaiyat
9 May 2011
gone4good

From what I understand the SSD is the boot up and cache for the HD in the iMac.

I was only able to track reports of real physical Z68 accidentally being released in Norway just days before the iMacs came out.

I suppose if you were a lucky, quick, Norwegian, mod builder, you just might have beaten Apple in time to test it all and see if it was working.

Good question about overclocking on a Mac. Might hunt down if anyone has whipped up the means to do it. I know you can use software to control all the individual fans inside iMacs. You'd need those to try and fix the extra heat from overclocking. Bye bye silent Mac!

As to Z68s and Sandy Bridge upgrades in MacPros, Apple is working its way through their product range. Next obvious cabs off the rank are the Macbook Air and Mac mini. I'm sure the Mac Pro which has seen major neglect for years has to be not far off.

Edited by rubaiyat: 9/5/2011 02:27:48 PM
gone4good
9 May 2011
"rubaiyat" wrote:
From what I understand the SSD is the boot up and cache for the HD in the iMac.


I still don't think that would be the ideal setup and you'd need a very large SSD (upwards of 300GB) to really make use of the caching. Tom's Hardware ran benchmarks with Z68 chipset back in March and from what I gather their conclusion is that the 3 drive setup is the best way to get performance. Someone more knowledgeable on this might be able to shed some light.

"rubaiyat" wrote:
I was only able to track reports of real physical Z68 accidentally being released in Norway just days before the iMacs came out.

I suppose if you were a lucky, quick, Norwegian, mod builder, you just might have beaten Apple in time to test it all and see if it was working.


That's not correct.

Check out the benchmark reports by both Tom's Hardware and Anandtech. Both completed mid March/early April. Other websites have also been testing various Z68 boards as well.

It has been available here in Australia for a few weeks as well. I know because a mate picked one up at the local computer fairs here in Newcastle two weekends ago, along with a new CPU, RAM and SSD. It's a Gigabyte board.

"rubaiyat" wrote:
Good question about overclocking on a Mac.


Good luck there. Pigs flying would probably be more likely.
rubaiyat
9 May 2011
genesishep wrote:
#9 ...Window resizing from the sides? This is a fundamental difference between Mac and PC interface design. Its not a boon for either camp.


Guess what, it is going to be in OSX 10.7 "Lion"!
rubaiyat
9 May 2011
gone4good wrote:
... you'd need a very large SSD (upwards of 300GB) to really make use of the caching.


That's what Apple is supplying in their upgrades. Which makes them an expensive option.

Thanks for the link to Pigs flying I knew there'd be something.

Edited by rubaiyat: 9/5/2011 03:55:35 PM
amcmo
9 May 2011
I've checked all our suppliers.

Z68 boards in 3-4 weeks from Gigabyte and ASUS. Might be backdoor available overseas, but that's when they should hit the channel over here according to them.

ASUS don't have the board listed yet on their corporate website.

Checked with our Gigabyte contact.

They may have supplied early prod / proto boards for testing by some sites but they do not have product approved for sale at present. 11th is the date. Suggestion that some boards might have been released to 'some persons at some locations' but should not be for sale to general public.

Edited by amcmo: 9/5/2011 04:26:41 PM
amcmo
9 May 2011
We've used 240GB SSD on the MacBook. That doesn't have HD caching, but our tests suggest that should be more than sufficient for HD caching in all but serious heavy work.

480GB hi quality SSD $980 straight buy, 240GB $488

Edited by amcmo: 9/5/2011 04:31:17 PM
gone4good
9 May 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
That's what Apple is supplying in their upgrades. Which makes them an expensive option.


Hmmm... At $600 the price isn't that expensive, only about $100 more than buying one from an online retailer.

rubaiyat wrote:
Thanks for the link to Pigs flying I knew there'd be something.


Yes a forum post from 2007 is really going to help you overclock a current iMac. I tried searching for something based on the 2011 models. Couldn't find anything substantial. Try here... http://www.anandtech.com/show/4314/apples-imac-the-first-z68-for-sale

gone4good
9 May 2011
amcmo wrote:
I've checked all our suppliers.


I just checked with one. I logged into Altech to check what they have and they have the Gigabyte boards in stock ready to go. I haven't checked other distributors yet but I can if you want. I'm not sure which Gigabyte rep you spoke to but there's something wrong there. If you want I can order you one tomorrow?

No, they won't have them listed on their websites yet due to the imposed deadline from Intel. It doesn't mean that they aren't available. As I posted above, a mate purchased a Gigabyte Z68 two weekends ago. Did it come from overseas or from a local distributor? No idea, but he got it at a computer fair.

Skipping ahead of official release dates happens all the time - its really not a big deal.

The point is, Apple had an exclusive over the other large PC manufacturers. That's significant.

gone4good
9 May 2011
amcmo wrote:
240GB $488


Or $600 extra from Apple (unless you want to to toss your warranty away).

That's really not that bad of a bump.
amcmo
9 May 2011
Guess we're using the wrong Gigabyte supplier.

Would still prefer ASUS - fewer issues ove the years. Consistent network port issues on Gygabyte boards, which is dumb as they both use the same chip on most boards.

Must check again as one of them was advertising that one port on their P67 board used the Intel chip which we use on our VM boxes wihtout any issues.

Don't deal with Altech, must give them a call tomorrow.

On the price diff between our SSD's and Apple on an iMac, I think I'd pay the diff just becaue of comlexity.

On a MacBook, Apple show you how to pull it apart to replace the RAM, the Hard drive is only a couple more screws and a little care with a flexi circuit.

Z68 Asus Hac/Win7 with an Asus board in a cleaned out G5 Pro case (I hate the style of current Thermaltake et al cases) even more tempting (The Register has an article on an H67 Hac Z68 would surely work also. But then it's illegal??.......

rubaiyat
9 May 2011
gone4good wrote:
amcmo wrote:
240GB $488


Or $600 extra from Apple (unless you want to to toss your warranty away).

That's really not that bad of a bump.


I don't think installing a HD or SSD revokes your warranty. As has been said Apple actually gives detailed guides how to do it.
rubaiyat
9 May 2011
I've just installed OSX 10.7 Lion on an external HD and am playing with it now, as I type.

There are quite a number of changes, mostly distinctive improvements. Biggest is that it will support a full set of gestures on the Magic TouchPad to have similar ways of working to iOS.

The UI has got a nice tweak and mostly for the better but I am not so sure about the push into not seeing the file structure by default. I don't think it actually helps technophobes to have basic structure hidden from them. Whilst it looks nice initially just seeing all documents as 2 sets, one recent other older, for anyone who handles or produces a lot of files like me, this will rapidly decend into a fly's eye view of icon wallpaper.

Each of the core applications has got a make over with new features. Mail in particular is a must have.

LaunchPad is the most notable addition. It throws all your applications up over the Desktop as a field of Icons from which you select the one you want. I must learn the keyboard shortcut for this. Running apps are not marked with the glowing dot as previously as all apps switch smoothly from open to closed state and back, retaining their last used states. You can run apps full screen, hiding the menus and sweep from one to the next with gestures.

Mission Control is the new all in one Exposé/Spaces/Dashboard etc view that sorts all open windows into a neat set of large thumbnails over the desktop with alternate Spaces in a sub row above. Get to it by hitting f3/Expose key.

FaceTime is now up front with unified Camera, Skype, iChat type functions. All in Hi Res on the new iMacs

Haven't noticed the Universal Auto Save, guess that just happens. Same as Resume.

AirDrop looks great for studios. Just simply send files to anyone around you wirelessly.

OSX Server is now integrated into OSX so even less versions of OSX now (one) compared with the McDonalds style upsizing of Windows.

It seems very stable and fully functional for a pre-release. There is even an upgrade already which after the restart shall be mine.
pennsylvania04
13 May 2011
Yeah. My friend and I keep on arguing about this. Now I can send her the link! Haha! Eat that Lyra!
rubaiyat
16 May 2011


I have specced up a PC equivalent to the iMac 27" i5 RRP US$1999 (10% disc: $1799)

(All prices are US$ for ease of comparison.)

It was based on the cheapest matching Newegg combo kit I could find.

Total along with Dell Ultrasharp U2711 Monitor is US$2,034.12

Plus 1 year parts replacement add $102.89 Total US$2,137.01*

Notes:

1. Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, closest match to Mac OSX 10.6, provides backup software, local networking without router, diagnostics, multi-language support. Unlike OSX, Win 7 Pro 32 and 64 bit are separate installations.

2. USB hub is to match Mac keyboard hub and is to compensate for PC USB ports being used by Camera and Bluetooth.

3. The optional Apple $19 Remote has no PC equivalent, so I left it off. The same with the Apple Magic Trackpad which is a mouse alternative or + mouse for $69.

4. There is no effective equivalent to the Apple 12 months warranty other than the lesser Service Net Replacement Extended Warranty. Effectively Apples warranty is a Parts & Labor, the Newegg is parts only.

5. *Newegg has a 30 days replacement policy, to approximately match Apple's 1 year parts and labor warranty, I added the Newegg 1 year Service Net Replacement Extended Warranty which is parts only.

6. Newegg 2 year Service Net Replacement Extended Warranty is $169.89

7. AppleCare Protection Plan 3 year worldwide with full phone support on any computer issues is $169.

8. Whilst I could match basic hardware internals I could not get the same quality for finish, externals or integration. The keyboard, mouse, camera, microphone, USB hub, Bluetooth dongle etc were in some cases simply the cheapest or, where that looked pretty bad, the next but cheapest. To get the low price combo I settled for the cheap basic case included, which probably is not quiet.

9. There are no Thunderbolt ports on the PC. There are no USB 3.0 ports on the Mac. USB 3.0 can be connected to the Mac via an extra cost (prob $25) Thunderbolt adaptor which is not yet available.

10. There is no equivalent of the OSX software suite, but the Combo kit did include Anti-Virus software.

11. The PC price includes delivery but does not include assembly, testing or full warranty or phone support.

12. The Mac price is delivered, complete, boot-up out of the box with I year parts and labor warranty and 90 days phone support on all computer issues.

Edited by rubaiyat: 16/5/2011 03:48:37 AM
rubaiyat
17 May 2011
The premium to source all DIY components, assemble, test and resolve problems is therefore +US$338.01

The end result is a computer made of mismatched pieces many with poor finish and design, with no overall warranty and support.

You can look at this two ways, you had a great time fiddling with a DIY project which was interesting and personally rewarding, or it was a huge waste of time that you could spend on paying work.

Either way you are paying a premium of 19% for the privilege.

That is why I no longer build my own drives which I did for over 20 years.

I enjoyed building them as long as I got some financial benefit from them. Practically I was taking a gamble when I experimented with some of the cheaper parts from PC suppliers. I learnt not to go there again, they were cheap for a reason, not just in construction and design but they had a high failure rate and took my valuable data with them.

Edited by rubaiyat: 3/6/2011 01:01:44 AM
rubaiyat
20 May 2011
There was some discussion about substitute screens for the 27" IPS LED iMac screen.

The one most of the costing was based on was the Dell UltraSharp U2711 LCD display TFT, with some debate on the quality.

My son and I have finally been able to slap our eyeballs on one, as he was looking for a replacement monitor to attach to his gaming PC, now that he has sold his 24" iMac.

It was extremely difficult getting the stores to show us any decent images on screen from their Windows PCs. None of them actually got what was wrong with the images or displays* or why we were being fussy. This is always a problem with PCs. We went through a lot of monitors, none of which showed good quality images, all had really cheap plastic finishes, and had difficulties adjusting to better viewing positions. They all felt, without exception, cheap and nasty.

The Dell UltraSharp U2711 was the best of the lot, but only by size and resolution. Comparing it to even the older 24" iMac the image was paler and ill-defined, with problems showing anything in the shadow areas and highlight areas tending to wash out. It only tilts awkwardly, you needed 2 hands to force it, and it was extremely stiff and jerky with very little movement. The cheap glossy plastic base looks like it will scuff badly and being light did little to stabilise the whole unit.

The end result was my son totally rejected out of hand all he saw as really bad value and pointless, since none of them were capable of showing good quality images or video. It was a most depressing experience. It was not even as if they were really cheap to compensate.

* Nearly all were too low res even for HD, let alone the SHD, contrasty and over compressed JPEGs. We found only a couple images capable of showing off the screens' capabilities, if there were any. I think the reason for this is, no PC users are experiencing or aware of anything better, and also high contrast images with excessive unsharp masking makes cheap displays look better to the average shopper.
amcmo
20 May 2011
Well researched and reasoned.

We have in the past week done a similar exercise on Mac Pro / equivalents for video work.

On the Mac Pro front, Apple do need to do some work on getting the price down, as the PC equiv does come in under the Mac Pro budget. USB3 and 6G eSata are plusses on the PC, with no Mac Pro equivalents.

There does seem to be a performance benefit with Final Cut vs Adobe, though with an SSD boot and Apps drive factored on both machines it's not huge. The department in question has not raised any monitor issues. As previously mentioned, I use Dell 24" (2006 vintage) monitors. Was top of the line at the time, with all the USB/card ports and am still happy with the performance. The last comparable Apple monitor I checked was the 24" ? cinema almost 2 years ago, didn't rate it.

The old days of a significant price premium for Apple do seem to be past for many products, just not Mac Pro yet.

Normally I would not get involved in a single machine decision, however as it has the potential to establish a hardware/software policy for that department, have kept an overview of the results. I won't get into discussions of relative performance merits, other than, we are still discussing and may well go with a vote of department members.
Sexcite
25 May 2011
1/2 way through my first interstate business trip using the iPad2 in place of the usual notebook and have to say it's fulfilling all requirements, inc VPN access to accounts and stock, plus Mail is proving to be as good as or better than Outlook on the notebook.

Microsoft/PC's have nothing to compete.

Android will have though in the words of a respected US reviewer, currently great promise, short on delivery. Perhaps another 6 months
rubaiyat
3 June 2011
As predicted the new iMacs are on sale now at several retail outlets.

Currently Dick Smith has the best offer with 10% off. Myers is also running a sale. The rest will follow.

The above specced 27" iMac is now A$1754, including free delivery, so a good measure cheaper than I allowed for in my costing.

I'll comparison shop to get the best complete deal available.

rubaiyat
3 June 2011
Have made my purchase at Myers:

iMac 27" i5 2.7Ghz $1750
Additional 5 years warranty for total of 6 years $299
eyeTV diversity Dual Tuner $155

1000 days interest free = $377.40 @ 6.25% interest
Myer One points = $110

Effective all up price $1716.60 for a 2560 x 1440 Super HiQ monitor on a very fast workstation/entertainment centre.

I'm loving this "Apple Tax"!
wilddog
10 June 2011
What a lot of rubbish!
Has anyone noticed that all this stuff is 3 years out of date! Apple O/S Leopard is not about to be released - it's now about to be replaced with Lion!

I have used, and written database software for Windows since 1981 (although my first machine was an Apple), and I'm so relieved to be using an iMac now - and find that my productivity has gone ahead in leaps and bounds!
Unfortunately I still have 3 Win7 machines and curse them every time I start one up!
I'm also ask who needs games! There's not enough time in the day for useful pursuits (I'm close on 70 now, and running out of computing time) methinks 20 years will go like a flash!
TerryJ
27 June 2011
In the last 27 years, I have listened to Mac and PC owners, and I have used both types of computers. My opinion is that PC's have done the bulk of home and business computing since personal pc's became popular in the 80's. While the Mac is superior in a few areas, PC development and pricing have established PCs as the best platform overall.
The thing that continues to get my attention is how many Mac owners continually throw their "Mac superiority" in our faces, much like Gays or "Global Warming" hoax believers throw their stuff in our faces. I'm beginning to think that many Mac owners are a bunch of liberal whack jobs. That you have continued to push your garbage in other peoples faces just decreases your credibility on anything you are arguing for.
PCs are not going away. They will dominate personal computing for a very long time. If you were able to see the writing on the wall, perhaps you would just be quiet.
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
27 June 2011
Your argument was already pretty thin, then you slashed it into pieces with your naive view on the world.
rubaiyat
28 June 2011
TerryJ

Couldn't agree with you more, though you should have thrown in the fake moon landings.

Really sticks in my craw how all those NASA "scientists" sucked in generations of naive Americans just so they could have cosy jobs in Dallas and Cape Canaveral.
Jane16
2 July 2011
Still think Mac is better. As I have used to the Mac, get music and TV shows from the iTunes, and also can play them on my iPad, iPhone, or Apple TV, there are a ecosystem! And what's more is the Apps! So many App developer are live on Apple now, like iFunia, a multimedia app developer make apps on Mac App Store now.
Macsterstudios
10 August 2011
I can already tell you don't know a thing about Macs and probably never used one.

Here's something I have to say about 12 of your reasons.

1. Right now, our service Pack, Lion, costs 25$. I've bought windows 7 for my PC laptop, it cost around 300$. That's 12 times the price of the Mac! For **** sake!

2. The design isn't only about the visuals, its because it works. The housing doesn't scratch as much, and its meant to be much more confined so dust hardly gets in, meaning your hardware inside stays in better shape. I use BOTH Pc and Mac and from the problems I had with PCs, and with the few problems I had with my mac, I can confirm it myself.

3. A personal computer is meant to be a tool, not a toy. Besides, you should know some decent game companies, like Blizzard (creator of Diablo, Warcraft and starcraft) have policies for making ALL of their games mac compatible. I play minecraft and WoW on my mac all day without trouble. Also, we have Steam now, so we definitively have hundreds have games as well.

4. We do have two mouse functions, you're just too ignorant to know about them. Touching on your touch pad where the right button should be would do a right click, or, an the old macbooks, having two fingers on the trackpad, or just holding ctrl and clicking. And if that doesn't work, just use any two-button mouse, IT WORKS JUST LIKE ON WINDOWS.

5. I never had any broadband problems with my Mac. If I did, I could just have downloaded any driver for free on the internet.

6. That is indeed a plus for PCs, I wont argue with that one. But I'll let you know it is still possible to change hardwares yourself on a Mac, I did it myself and had asbolutely no experience in that before. All it does is removing the warranty (obviously since you don't even use the same hardware anymore)

7. Sure, you have tons of companies making your hardware, sure it comes faster. That's another plus for Windows, granted, but older macs still work fine. I have an almost 4 year old macbook and its comparable to most recent PCs I see out there.

8. I don't really know about that, sometimes they just can't pick those dates, and most likely its because PCs does releases at those dates, so to reduce the changes of competing too much in those times, that would just make sense.

9. Are you retarded? OS X Lion does EVERYTHING you just said. And we do have a full window functions actualy, the way it works though is that sometimes it just saves the last size you put it on, making it conveniant. You want a full window? Just put your window in a corner and stretch it bigger, or are you even too lazy to do that?

10. Sure, this makes a big plus, but it gives you a huge Con. Windows do NOT have control over every company. Mac is a big, strong company, they wont shut down just like that. However, not all PC brands are as powerful as Microsoft. Any of them could just die like that, and nobody would be able to do a thing about it, and that's because they're not appart of Microsoft, and therefor not as strong as it. Yes, there's a plus, but you gotta admit the problems that comes along with it too.

11. You get what you paid for. That pretty much describe this. Apple care is just so easy, fast and simple. Ever tried calling for your PCs? Who do you call at all? Microsoft? Dell? Toshiba? Intel? You can't even know where to call at because your computer's not made by a single company, its separated in pieces. And those companies' customer service is far from being as good as Apple's. Don't trust me? TRY IT YOURSELF BEFORE CRYING ABOUT THE PRICE.

12. Big companies just come and go, its just like that. Commodor used to be THE big PC company, now its 100% gone. Same thing could happen to Microsoft, just like it could happen to apple. This is Business, giants come and go, there's nothing you can do about it, it just happens. Sony themselves almost got bankrupt when they created the PS3 (price too high), even though Sony is such a huge company.


In conclusion, I think your review is very biased. You only said negative stuff about Macs, how about the bright sides? Have you even used one? Yes, maybe PC has the big advantages of having a huge hardware selection, and computers for tight budgets, but Mac has advantages in software, hardware and service you simply cannot deny, and that I would bet that Microsoft would just LOVE to have those.

You're obviously just a fanboy trying to pick a side.

I'm a Mac user, but I can still use a PC without problem, but I preffer the Mac for my own reasons. Its a personaly choice, but I don't understand why people need to trash on side or another.
amcmo
10 August 2011
Couple of simple observations.

We're a multi platform business.

Staff can choose their hardware and O/S provided it's been approved.(Easy process)

We have had PC (Win) users ask to move to Mac and Linux
We have had 1 user ask to go from Linux to Mac - none back to Win.
We have never had a Mac user ask to go to PC (If they have to run a Windows only pgm they use Parralels or VM) or Linux.

Macs for the past two reviews have topped our reliability reviews. Apple service and support tops our support reviews.

The original 32 reason's was a flawed and biased article when released, and is even more flawed based on today's reality.
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
10 August 2011
I recently moved from Ubuntu to Windows. I tried for 3 years to get into Ubuntu, but it's just way too slow and fiddly compared to Windows (especially on my netbook, who would have thought!)
rubaiyat
11 August 2011
If anyone is concerned about Apple being less of a certain bet than Microsoft, yesterday it briefly topped Exxon as the world's largest company by value.

Whilst it has dropped back below Exxon I am sure it won't be long in its inexorable rise before it beats Exxon again and stays there.

PC users have run out of (mostly 3rd hand and misheard) excuses and will have to completely flip them (have been doing that for some time on quite a few) or make up entirely new ones to have anyone even listen to their kneejerk whining resentment.
amcmo
11 August 2011
Beating Exxon in market cap even momentarily must mean Apple is the ultimate corporate evil!:lol:

Cybe3, intrigued by your comment.

Slave here runs Unbuntu on a number of machines and never ceases to rave, though none of the company ones is a netbook. Don't know what machines he runs at home, other than there are a number of pieces of ancient hardware functioning as backup machines etc, all I believe on Linux.

He's on leave at the moment doing a trek or tramp, whatever they call it where he comes from. I know, letting staff take leave, must be going soft in the head!
rubaiyat
11 August 2011
Apple's back on top again.

We're all doomed! DOOMED I tell you! DOOOOOOMEEEEED!

Women and children first! Now where did I put my Shirley Temple costume?
amcmo
11 August 2011
Just print an A3 of your avatar. They'll be so busy staring you'll be long gone before they realise!
blockcentre
11 August 2011
.:Cyb3rGlitch:. wrote:
I recently moved from Ubuntu to Windows. I tried for 3 years to get into Ubuntu, but it's just way too slow and fiddly compared to Windows (especially on my netbook, who would have thought!)


I know exactly what you mean.

I'm contemplating the same, although I rarely use the laptop anymore as my new desktop just obliterates all before it. It's the fiddly-ness of Linux that's getting to me. Maybe I'm the issue, but anytime I want to do something that's outside the box it just becomes a chore. Something that should just take half an hour ends up taking half the day.

So much faster to do on my desktop or any of the other Windows machines in the house. Can't beat the combination of kick-ass hardware and Win 7.

amcmo
12 August 2011
Had a quick sit down on one of our Linux machines this morning just to see what the thread was about.

Booted very quickly, runs apps faster than My Win7 machine, mind you it's Open Office, and while it looks SIMILAR to MS Office in function, I don't know how it stacks up in useability. I also don't knwo how much time was spent setting it all up. Several years back I set up an early Ubuntu and Suse and didn't have too much trouble for basic functionality, though didn't try anything with sound etc.

Cybe3, perhaps I should send 'slave' around when he returns from leave to set up your machine (for an exorbitant fee of course :d )
.:Cyb3rGlitch:.
12 August 2011
Not interested. It's not the set up that's the problem (although on some distros it's a days work), it's the maintenance.
amcmo
12 August 2011
We don't seem to have maintenance issues, though 'slave' eats sleeps ... linux
Slatts
13 August 2011
rubaiyat wrote:
PC users have run out of (mostly 3rd hand and misheard) excuses and will have to completely flip them (have been doing that for some time on quite a few) or make up entirely new ones to have anyone even listen to their kneejerk whining resentment.


To paraphrase Vincent Price:

You know what I think I love the most about Apple is its inborn need to dominate, possess.

In fact, immediately after the consummation of its purchase by the smaller and weaker willed of the species it kills and eats his MS hardware!...(laugh) oh, she is delicious...And I hope it was!

Such power and dignity...unhampered by sentiment.

If I may put forward a slice of personal philosophy, I feel that Microsoft has ruled this world as a stumbling demented child-king, long enough!

And as Bill's empire crumbles, Steve's precious Mac shall rise as his most fitting successor!


Yes, I know, the second sentence is kind of weak, but I had to work with the material at hand.:p
amcmo
13 August 2011
I would say that Apple attempts to present such a rounded, reliable experience that you wish to stay within the fold. With MS you're left to the vagaries of 10,000 manufacturers all with slightly different hardware, and enough twist to ensure you never achieve reliable operation. I bank on a Windows rebuild every 6-8 months to get it back to performing as I wish.

With Apple computers you are free to install any software you wish, hardware for hundreds of 3rd parties, doesn't sound much different from Linux, or MS...

OK some Apple hardware is not user upgradeable, however I do know we installed additional memory and an SSD in the MacBook, you certainly can in a Mini, and a Pro. Not certain about the iMac.

I would have thought that Google was intending to take over the MS mantle, just a little more evil.... Jobs can't compete!

Edited by amcmo: 13/8/2011 02:36:05 PM

Edited by amcmo: 13/8/2011 02:39:05 PM
Slatts
13 August 2011

Yes, well it wouldn't have been right to drag Google into a Mac V MS thread now would it?

gracewing
15 August 2011
While I was in the US, I bought a Mac book pro at lunch time and was re-compiling my Windows development software by the end of the day. With bootcamp, I boot to Windows 7 automatically. I can run OS X if I want as well.

The missing keys and no middle mouse button are an annoyance but in my office I just plug in Windows versions via the USB.

I had a number of support calls the first few days and the support was excellent.
amcmo
15 August 2011
Hey Slatts, you said Apple was going to take over the MS mantle, just gave you an alternative to think on!
Slatts
15 August 2011
amcmo wrote:
Hey Slatts, you said Apple was going to take over the MS mantle, just gave you an alternative to think on!


I wasn't having a go at you amcmo, It was a throwaway comment.

Apart from the Google bit not having occurred to me at the time, I wouldn't have mentioned it as it didn't fit the quote that I butchered.

:p
rubaiyat
16 August 2011
I think now that time has passed and maturity and experience have added to this debate, there really isn't much in it other than you can get really good Macs now for an excellent price but they are in specific form factors and you don't fiddle with them anywhere like you do with PCs. You can do the one thing that you can't do with PCs: That is try them out to your heart's content before you buy.

You can on the reverse side buy a wide range of PCs but it is virtually impossible now to buy something to match a Mac (other than the MacPro) and get it at a better price. In fact in the cases of the iMacs and the Macbook Airs any equivalent PC will cost considerably more. MacBooks can fall either way and Mac minis and Mac Pros may be more expensive, so with those you are paying for the Mac total package rather than the hardware.

PCs still have the advantage in tailoring specific solutions, but in most cases, outside core CPUs and GPUs, you will have to make compromises in quality, quality of finish, integration, heat and noise and especially support. The greatest compromise you will have to make is the OS and overall user experience.

Macs are great generalist machines as they are mostly all inclusive, requiring little or no supplementary hardware or software.

If your budget is too tight to afford quality anything, then you will have to buy a PC and put up with what that entails in lower quality, specifically in displays, finish, integration, noise, heat, OS and software. Mostly you will have to put up with a lower quality overall experience and support.

If you want the best of everything, build a Hackintosh and install OSX with Windows and Linux as side boots. This however will compromise the core merit of Macs in the tight integration of hardware/software but it will get close. btw You probably won't save any money over buying an out of the box Mac. I tried. The only thing where you might gain is building a high powered desktop model with much more powerful graphics card, but at considerably greater expense.

If you are simply cheap and a Linux freak, a Mac won't stop you. Install Linux and all the free software you want for both the Mac and Linux. They are in nearly all cases the same free applications anyway. The Mac has even more that Linux doesn't have. Then use both for a while. If you continue using Linux after the tryout period, past the point of curiosity, I will be very surprised.

If you are hung up on Windows for games, that is such a specific purpose that you may as well keep your old PC (they are supposed to be long term good value right?) but get a Mac for everything else including any other PC software. Again I will be surprised if you bother with Windows for very long after anyway.

All these are my experience of anyone I know who has ever seriously tried using Mac OSX.

gio_gziro95
28 August 2011
Windows is worst (puke)
Mac is good :)
Linux is the best ;)
computer repairs melbourne
29 August 2011
Can't we all just get along? A computer is a computer. PC or Mac or Linux or whatever your choice may be, we live in a world where we separate and draw lines on everything. I would like to think in this case that technology wins and whether you use a PC or a Mac. Just don't be too precious about flaunting your 'flashy' technology - whether it be a PC or a Mac
rubaiyat
29 August 2011
Computers are not just computers, there are obvious differences that lead people to make their choices.

The problem comes down to personal preferences, taste, experience, as well as irrational prejudices.

There is also an amazingly ignorant revisionist history of computing which has been fought over here at length. Some people have a fantasised recollection of the sequence of developments in the industry.

As a long time user of Macs who also has PCs and has to work in PC environments on others' computers I have both the basis of comparison that many Mac users have and Ican clearly remember the phobic reactions and undying hostility of both I.T. departments and PC users against Macs and Mac users from the very beginning. This is a not unexpected behavior from conformists against those breaking ranks. It also comes from people essentially ignorant of what is being discussed but ignorant of their ignorance so even more certain in their certainty. Like listening to creationists "explaining" evolution to you and the "facts" in their unchallenged single source font of knowledge.

The Mac users response to this has been to dig their heels in. Particularly as one after the other of "the things that are wrong with the Mac" are belatedly appropriated by other computer manufacturers, software publishers and OSes, usually after enormous delays and obstruction.

As a persecuted minority we both revel in and rebel against the dumbass majority. So no, the fight is far from over. You only have to see how any mention of Apple or Macs in forums is still set upon by visceral vitriol and ludicrous claims of unbelievable veracity which, as I just saw in one case yesterday, didn't need substantiation as they were just "FACTS" (sic) so take that!.












CivBase
29 August 2011
I just read this article (a few years too late) and I bothered to read the first page of comments. Here's what I saw:

PC Authority: "Here's our list of reasons why PCs are better than Macs."
Mac Users: "Nu-uh!"
Slatts
29 August 2011
CivBase wrote:
I just read this article (a few years too late) and I bothered to read the first page of comments.


I'm sorry for your loss Civ.

Were it in my power, I'd give you that 10 minutes back.:(

MichaelBJ
21 October 2011
I use and enjoy both systems. Both are fully sick, both are crud in their own ways. Would it be better if there was only Microsoft, or only Apple?
Courtney
4 December 2011
I had a PC for about 3 years, during that time i had it, i brought 2 new keypads, and mice, because of the numerous occasions that it broke down, and would not connect to my computer, also i had to buy 2 screens, and got my hard drive fixed about 6 times, for virus, and for it deciding not to work, i had so many troubles trying to connect it was a joke. I brought a mac, which was pricey, but funny enough in the end cost less than my PC, with all the fixing it need. I've had my mac for about 4 years, do exactly the same things i did on my pc, and it has actually never crashed on me, or had any troubles! It's never turned on always on sleep, and doesn't have a problem loading in under 3 minutes. So personality Macs are better, and PC don't have apple care.
mrrktomes
13 December 2011
I do think Windows 7 is very easy to use. But so is OSX. They're both good at what they do and I see no reason to compare. Win 7 exists to make both Windows and Mac users happy. Win 7 is far more secure than XP which was first released 10 years ago.
Stomfi
12 February 2012
As a pre MAC and PC GUI workstation user, it's funny to see comparisons between these "me too" marketing products, still on the shelves many years after they should have passed their use by date.
I stuck with Unix GUI workstations while Apple appropriated XEROX code and devolved the productive keyboardless 3 button mouse into a single button mantra product and the 19" screen with productive pop up menus into a postage stamp with top bar menus for added mouse travel.
The PC faired no better with its SVGA graphics, eventually having to appropriate Apple's appropriated code to implement only about half the GUI WIMP standards documented by XEROX in 1974. PC security has always been at risk, seeing it was originally designed to be a clever mainframe terminal slave and when Microsoft had the chance with code from SV3, they left out the UNIX file permissions and networking stacks because the Internet was considered to be "just a fad".
Years later I migrated to Linux and can now type this comment on a wireless keyboard via one of many converted PCs. This one attached to an HDMI port on my 42" HDTV across the room.
With all the free tools I get from Linux and the free research done at Universities, I'm trying to make the system operate like the pre IBMPC 1995 aim for a really useful and easy to use personal workstation. An all talking, all listening, all seeing, all showing, human interface to a P2P network node in a secure super computing grid. Anything else is delay by marketing experts fur pre-developed products made by vested interest groups.
The marks might think their current acquisition is tops but when compared with say an '85 Silicon Indy, which was considered to be a replaceable stage in the quest for the every person's system. there's been no invention, no innovation, and no real advancement in the market place for 25 years.

rubaiyat
13 February 2012
The original Xerox Alto was not a personal computer, never saw light of day outside Xerox and a hand full of universities. It went nowhere, as did the half hearted Xerox Star.

In fact when Xerox did release a commercial PC in 1981 the Xerox 820 they ignored their own WIMP developments.

Apple never "appropriated XEROX code" and their delivery of the Lisa in 1983 and the Macintosh in 1984 went way beyond what Xerox had done. But Apple has always acknowledged the Xerox work, paid Xerox in stock for the IPR and employed some of Xerox's researchers, who rightly saw Xerox as doing nothing with their innovations.

"No invention, no innovation, and no real advancement in the market place for 25 years." is a bit rich. Glib drivel that ignores the enormous leaps forward in usability, functionality and productivity. Easy to get away with if you rely on the ignorance of most users.

I'm truly fascinated by the claims of the supposed virtues of free software on Open Source systems, as if neither Windows nor Mac OSX don't equally have large free libraries as well as their huge commercial software collections.

Mac OSX has access to all the UNIX software through its free X11 environment and all the Windows software through its free Boot Camp, so can safely say it has the most software available of any platform. Contrary to the claims of the naysayers.
rubaiyat
13 February 2012
How the times they change:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-01/apple-invades-3-8t-workplace-market-with-ipad.html

Hardly a negative word against Apple, Macs and their iOS gadgets.
Eric
28 February 2012
Good Article. I am using pc :D
Lawry
11 March 2012
The fist argument about cost is so much rubbish I couldn't read much of the rest. After a dabble with Apple the entire organization I work for(7000 staff) went universally PC to cut overall costs (HW, SW and maintenance) by a massive 60%. Show me an organization (other than Apple i{^_=}) with more than 1000 staff that uses Macs as their standard computer systems, I think you will be looking for a long time.
MAC's being virus free is a myth, there could actually be more viruses on Macs than PC's because the tools for finding Mac viruses are so pathetic and the people who use MACs are brainwashed into thinking they don't need to look. When a MAC stops working the users say, "oh it must be hardware" and buy a HW solution, often a new computer (I know that is true first hand because I end up with the "faulty" parts or systems to scrap as part of my research).
Why do Macs end up in movies so much? exactly the same reason that self absorbed people with money drive Porches, it impresses the uninformed and the myth that price always buys quality.
rubaiyat
12 March 2012
Oddly enough I came across this guy the other day who runs I.T. in the currency section of the US Federal Reserve.

He seems to have nailed every one of the above arguments on the head. Cost, security, number and productivity. All on Macs running OSX.

I did keep reading after the claim "there could actually be more viruses on Macs than PC's" but only because I have an extremely well developed sense of humor.

I think in one stroke you revealed your expertise at that point.

The only security Windows/PCs achieve, is job security for those propping it up at the expense of the users.
rubaiyat
14 March 2012
This is exactly what Mac users are missing by not having Windows:

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/security-it/microsoft-patches-remote-desktop-flaws-20120314-1uzrh.html
rubaiyat
14 March 2012
This is the face of "failure":

http://thingsappleisworthmorethan.tumblr.com/
willtell
15 March 2012
rubaiyat wrote:


Although this whole thread is nothing but flame bait...

Every OS requires security patches. As hole are discovered, they get patched. I don't understand this mentality of signaling out an operating system based on issuing security patches.

Do you think this is a Windows only issue? Are you that naive? Last month Apple issued a whole lot of security patches to fix exploits from 10.6 up. Although I don't know all the technical details, from what was said in our office they were fairly serious.

You should be happy that they are issuing them, rather than ignoring the problem and hoping that it all works itself out.


rubaiyat
15 March 2012
I have no problem with patches. But did you follow through what those patches were on?

I was following through the prior statement that Windows was required to maintain security. We all know how well Windows does that.

As for Apple's patches, they are regular and mostly dead boring, with no breaches that I know of. If anything I'd like more patches specifically on UI, the rest seems just maintenance. The last bit of excitement was the Flight of the Trojans last year, and boy that was an anticlimax! Apple stopped them in their tracks before we even got a chance to lay out the red carpet and carry these harbingers of the Apocalypse over the threshold, to a welcoming bowl of fruit.

Here is the schedule for all the recent security updates.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1222

I don't recall anything that anyone described as "fairly serious". Other than you of course, and you don't seem too sure on the subject.
willtell
15 March 2012
Quick search turned this up.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9223930/Apple_updates_Lion_patches_51_bugs_in_Mac_OS_X

To quote...

"Of the 51 total flaws, 40 were tagged by Apple with its usual "arbitrary code execution" phrase, the company's way of saying that the bugs were critical and could be used by attackers to hijack a Mac with a working exploit.

One of the vulnerabilities could be exploited in a "drive-by" attack, which only requires duping users into browsing to a malicious site to be successful."

Doesn't sound too regular and dead boring to me.

The point is all O/S's will have exploits and they will all need to be patched. Any exploit issue for Windows is going to grab tech headlines as it's the OS being used on over 85% of all the computers out there. The same vulnerabilities are being found in other O/S's but it's not news worthy as hardly anyone would care.

rubaiyat
16 March 2012
Fair enough. I was aware of the issues with the OSX 10.7.3 Delta update, but personally always avoid those and always use the Combo update which brings all security and all patches from version the x.0 up into one update.

The thing that struck me about the Windows bugs was that they all worked on the Remote Access, not a little vulnerability but potentially something you could drive a truck through.
photohounds
25 March 2012
Loooong thread this one.

As a (mainly) Linux user, it TOO has vulnerabilities. The Linux maintainers (unusually compared to others) are VERY candid about why we need to patch something or other.

Others hide this so as to appear invulnerable ... like the old auto reboots MACs used to do.

Can't remember the exact text but certainly it implied something other than a CRASH so MAC users said they never did.

No different today, hide your weaknesses ... I prefer honesty.
rubaiyat
27 March 2012
That is just your rather jaundiced view of what is happening.

You can set OSX to auto-reboot in the case of a crash and that is clearly stated as such but is not my experience why anyone claims OSX does not crash. Mostly it is just that OSX very, very, very rarely ever gets to that point.

The only thing that can cause a total reboot is a kernel panic which is amazingly rare. Those that I have had have come about from either a hardware fault or what are called Haxies which were system modifiers which are mostly avoided these days.

That is not to say that software does not crash, it does, not often but it happens.

Like all UNIX systems you can look back through your logs to see what has happened and how often. Also Activity Monitor will give you a rundown of the last forced reboot. Mine goes back a year and a half since I bought it and there is no record of a forced restart. So for this model (iMac 27"/OSX 10.6 or 10.7), yes it never crashes.

So far.
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