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smadge1
7 February 2011
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USE Registered Post, that's what it's there for. I use it all the time, and file the receipts just in case.
Comment made about the PC & Tech Authority article:
eBay users, did this seller get ripped off??
What happens when the item you've sold on eBay gets lost in the mail? Read what happened when this happened to a reader who contacted us.
What do you think? Join the discussion. |
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Staeven
7 February 2011
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For anything of value you MUST use registered post and even consider requesting a signed delviery notification (add-on to registered post).
Even consider using registered post for low value items. I had one nuf nuf who claimed the $17 item did not arrive. Lots of calls, lots of time, lots of emails. Then a month or so later it had arrived, but it was busted with most of the stuff missing. He put in a claim and over the course of the claim provided conflicting and outright stupid information. All this even though the item was covered by standard Auspost <$50 insurance (Paypal was informed about this process). Paypal still found in his favour.
Mega amounts of wasted time.
I will never send anything sold on eBay by anything other than Registered Post ever again.
Regardless of value it is just NOT worth the hassle!!!
grrrrr |
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amboman52
7 February 2011
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I can only agree with smadge1, no receipt, no proof. Stat decs work both ways - you file one, the buyer files one - you are no further advanced. |
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Sniper
7 February 2011
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This is one of the reason I refuse to use PP, another is the high fee's charged by PP.
IF you sell something on Fraudbay or any online auction/ for sale, you ALWAYS send registered post AND require a signature on delivery. Its the ONLY WAY to cover yourself and there would be times that wont work as well.
It is the ONLY way to cover your arse |
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Sniper
7 February 2011
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And YES the seller did get ripped off. |
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dbareis
7 February 2011
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The burden of proof should be on the Seller! Thats why you have registered mail! |
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Flirkann
7 February 2011
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3rd'd - Should have used Registered Post, not only would the seller have an element of insurance protection (or full if correctly setup) from Australia Post and be able to get confirmation from AusPost regarding delivery, but they would also qualify for PayPal's Seller Protection program.
Hell, even Express Post would have been better as it can at least be traced through the AusPost system for a yay/nay on delivery. |
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rubaiyat
7 February 2011
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Registered Post is not what it is made out to be.
I used registered post to give notice to a tenant and it never got delivered.
I didn't pursue the matter because I got him by other means, but Australia Post didn't give a damn and just proffered a stack of excuses. |
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john.anderson
7 February 2011
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It makes no difference in the outcome of a dispute if you have proof of shipping or not. i have been selling on eBay for over 6 years and during this time have spend 5 years fighting PayPal with the FOS for funds removed from my account and given back to buyers who have acted fraudulently, dishonestly or just used the system to their advantage ... $150,000+ to date.
its safe to say i have seen the best and worst of the system. the issue always comes back to the person at PayPal who is determining the outcome of the dispute and the one sided approach to the dispute process given at both eBay and PayPal.
i ship with full online tracking and only to the address given by PayPal but in an INR dispute i am still yet to win a case. my personal favorite is the SNAD which a buyer can claim whatever they like, provide no proof and still win. here are just 2 examples of disputes i have lost recently which cost me over $4000AUD and PayPal believe they were acceptable losses and the buyers in both cases should get the funds back.
1. buyer purchases a computer, item shipped by the method the buyer requested in emails which had a 14 - 21 day delivery time. item had full online tracking. 7 days later the buyer filed an INR claiming they had not received their item. i provided tracking and full details of the transaction ... dispute closed in 2 days in my favor (i did say i have never won one of these) and here is why. the buyer immediately filed an SNAD for an item they claimed they never received. reason for the SNAD ... buyer received empty box. tracking stated weight at shipping so i was covered for it being empty. item was fully insured so again i was covered ... right? mmm ... not.
as the item had full online tracking it was visible to PayPal via the tracking (which is why the INR was closed) and it showed currently in customs awaiting clearance. the buyer faxed PayPal a police report stating that they had received an empty box and the police verified this. PayPal awarded the dispute in the buyers favor in 3 days. i lost my payment and my computer.
i appealed 3 times and on the 3rd time i was told that the case was never investigated and awarded to the buyer on the basis that the buyer is always right. after the last manager checked all the details they noted that the buyer had forged a police report which they had used previously in another dispute and that the item was as stated still in customs.
PayPal granted my appeal on the basis i contact the buyer to get them to give me the money back as it was now a civil matter where the buyer has lied and nothing to do with PayPal.
The buyer refused to return the computer or the payment stating he was told to do this and he had done it before and it worked so he did it again. His gain was my loss in his words.
2. 2 x iPhone 3GS sold to UK buyer. items shipped with full tracking delivered in 2 days. buyer files an SNAD claiming items are fake. PayPal provided with full tracking, Apple documentation for each item proving ownership and authenticity. in addition PayPal were provided with proof of activation on the Apple system of the 2 iPhones (serial number/IMEI numbers supplied) at the address (IP trace) proving the items received were genuine.
PayPal found in the buyers favor in 2 days stating that we had shipped counterfeit goods. the buyer was not required to prove this or return the goods but instead instructed by PayPal to destroy them but no evidence required. we received a black mark for trafficking fake goods and no right of appeal.
i have 100+ examples of the same where even with the correct documentation PayPal awards in the favor of the buyer.
had the seller in this case provided proof of shipping the buyer would have only needed to state that they received a piece of paper and not the tickets to win. had the seller gone to where the buyer was using the tickets (if they were numbered) the buyer could claim purchase from another method. eBay and PayPal are a scammers paradise because in the end the seller has no come back in the event of a dispute.
if your buyer is savvy they can rip you blind and as a seller you never know who is going to do it next. diligence and compliance with policies will only help in the case where a buyer is genuinely having a problem. in the cases where you are being scammed ... GOD has no power in the PayPal dispute process and your buyer will win based on the buyer comes first rule which has given way to over zealous buyer protection and the inability for a seller to leave negative feedback for buyers to warn other sellers.
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jer1au
7 February 2011
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There is a PayPal requirement for proof of delivery in their terms so if you read them you should always use registered or courier etc. The other option people use is to insist on registered for PP transactions and that you can use standard post for other payment types that don't require this proof and/or cheap items that can be resent or downloaded etc. |
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steven
7 February 2011
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I wonder if the seller would've been happy to send, say a $400 camera or netbook through ordinary mail with no proof of delivery or insurance? I've no doubt he's been ripped of by the buyer but for an extra $2.50 Registered Post he could've been safe and not out of pocket. An expensive lesson, hey? |
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john.anderson
7 February 2011
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i doubt the outcome would have been any different. his buyer set him up from the outset. had the package been registered the buyer only needed to claim SNAD and still go the money back. this is a perfect example of where the system fails sellers ... burden of proof ...
i spent over $5000USD to prove my buyer forged a police report to win a dispute which PayPal admitted they already knew ... however, they still believed it was the right thing to give the money back to the buyer ... and still believe it ...
nevertheless you should always ship your items with trackable shipping and signature at delivery as this is a requirement of the user agreement because then at least the FOS will side with you. |
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john.anderson
7 February 2011
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i doubt the outcome would have been any different. his buyer set him up from the outset. had the package been registered the buyer only needed to claim SNAD and still go the money back. this is a perfect example of where the system fails sellers ... burden of proof ...
i spent over $5000USD to prove my buyer forged a police report to win a dispute which PayPal admitted they already knew ... however, they still believed it was the right thing to give the money back to the buyer ... and still believe it ...
nevertheless you should always ship your items with trackable shipping and signature at delivery as this is a requirement of the user agreement because then at least the FOS will side with you. |
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Gunsynd
7 February 2011
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I have curtailed using PayPal and eBay following the following nasty experience. I purchase a notebook PC using PayPal that was supposed to boot. When it arrived (minus parts that the seller promised) it would not boot. I registered a complaint with PayPal as I expected the PayPal guaranty would get my money back. The PC was minus a Hard drive (as advertised) but I tried to explain via email to PayPal that I used a Live Linux CD to check the PC so it didn't need a hard drive to boot. PayPal's very limited reply and lack of technical knowledge seemed to imply that the PC won't boot because it didn't have a hard drive so hence my appeal was rejected. You cannot talk to anyone so I have no idea why my claim was rejected. Beware the PayPal guaranty is not what it claims to be.
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trustnoone
7 February 2011
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There going about this all wrong, legally as far as I know, if you choose buy it now on an item (not sure about bid). Then it is the SELLERS responsibility that the item is received buy the buyer.
If the item is not received then it is the seller who must chase this up. That is why things like Australia post has REGISTERED mail and also keep tracking numbers.
Registered mail helps the seller more then the buyer in most cases and can also help prove that the item has been sent to the particular address.
I do feel bad for the user who might of got ripped off, but unfortunately it should have been sent as registered. |
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ory_zm
7 February 2011
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I don't think alot of the commentors understand that even when an item si shipped via registered post with signature required on delivery, the buyer can win the claim, simply because PayPal 99% of the time is on the buyer's side.
Thats why I always feel safe to shop using PayPal but would rather any other payment process when selling items (I used to have an ebay store and am familiar with what john.anderson is saying)... In the end if the buyer is determined the seller can't win. Only alternative as I see it is going to a real court. |
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Staeven
8 February 2011
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Sheesh, and I thought my P$yP$l experience was bad.
What a wake up call john.anderson gave us.
John, I hope you provide(d) those details to the ACCC for the next time eBay attempts to remove all other payment options leaving P$yP$l as the only online option. |
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rubaiyat
8 February 2011
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Of course there is always the option of not going into that dark alley late at night, joining in the shonky card game in the sleazy basement with only one exit manned by bikies, having that drunken unprotected sex with the drug addict you just met at a party, or downing that pill from the guy with the tats at the Rave.
But then, maybe you're feeling lucky! |
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amcmo
8 February 2011
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This is a perfect example of the eBay/PayPal rip off of valid merchants. (eBay own PayPal for thos ewho don't know).
We have 1300 positive feedbacks, yet from time to time get a A/H customer who for whatever reason chooses to leave neg or neautral f/b knowing that you have no recorse at all. Recent. ordered Sunday, shippend ovrnight Monday, received Tuesday, seller left neutral. Contacted and asked if anything wrong, response - just felt like it... I can not leave f/b or give him positive with soem sort of comment.. BUT NOT NEUTRAL which is what he deserves. I can request revision by the customer but only 5 times per thousand sales, so not worth using one ip on a neutral. Then we move on to PayPal... excessive fee's. We have had 2 cases where we can prove delivery, but still per other poster's PayPal just take the money.
It's simptomatic of the whole arrogant eBay/PayPal combine - we own the market so get screwed! They claim to be making eBay / PayPal safer for buyers, but what about the seller (without us they have no business) we all get treated like criminals who will steal from unsuspecting buyers and give bad feedback for no reason.
They know they have a monopoly and can do as they please. |
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amcmo
8 February 2011
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Just another comment on registered mail.. it is a con.
We were chasing a non delivered parcel from a supplier.
Australia post claimed delivered to us, with signature and name that does not correspond to any of our staff. Chased for 6 weeks. Post's final position - delivered per our service guarantee, so get lost. If they deliver to incorrect address and someone signs for it - their liability has ended according to them. Of course one could sue, but who has that sort of money to throw around on a possible victory. |
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MickeyFinn
8 February 2011
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john.anderson has outlined one story that just HAS to be this one I have seen on an Aussie forum: http://www.ozroundtable.com/index.php?topic=1754.0
It has a lot more detail (plus some comments by other posters) and the case is STILL being pursued by the seller.
Very interesting reading - but if you're a seller, I wouldn't advise checking it out last thing before going to bed. |
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Macropodmum
8 February 2011
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Good reason not to use paypal I think! |
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cybergenic
8 February 2011
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Registerd Post
Problem solved. |
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rubaiyat
8 February 2011
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cybergenic wrote:Registerd Post
Problem solved.
No it isn't. Haven't you read the posts above? |
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fromthemouthofbabes
10 February 2011
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The only real proof ebay accept is Australia Post E-Parcel. You can enter the online tracking number in the dispute, and this tracking sends it right through to delivery. Then there is no argument with paypal |
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skarpethinn
11 February 2011
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It does work both ways, tho - in 2005, i purchased an MP3 player from a eBay seller in America, and it never arrived, costing me $AU250.
Due to the (potentially long) postal time for international shipping (4-6 wks), and PayPal's timeframe on lodging disputes (at the time it was within 45 days of auction ending), i ended up not even being able to lodge a dispute to get my money back.
The MP3 player never arrived, the buyer replied to me only once, along "let me look into it and get back to you" lines, and i never got my money back either. |
